There is no denying that white supremacy is an engine of the right.
There are some Republican voters who are sympathetic to their party’s ultranationalist turnand don’t believe the party’s attitudes toward issues such as immigration and crime are the products of racial animus. But over and over again, right-wing leaders and thinkers reveal that white supremacism is an engine of this movement.
The latest example comes via an episode of “The Tucker Carlson Show” released this week, in which the former Fox News host interviews podcast host and newsletter writer Darryl Cooper. Carlson, arguably the most influential right-wing nationalist commentator in America, said Cooper “may be the best and most honest popular historian in the United States.” But Cooper has made clear that his intellectual project regarding World War II includes Holocaust revisionism.
It is truly insane to me that the one party in this country has moved into straight-up holocaust denial, but the only thing that will get you labeled an antisemite by either party is suggesting we politely ask Israel to do a little less genocide with the weapons we give them.
I also love the fact that saying we shouldn’t allow one semitic group to eradicate another semitic group with our tax payer dollars, makes you antisemitic.
Careful buddy, if you keep talking like that, AIPAC is going to give hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Nazi-apologist to take your job.
To be fair both parties are currently engaged in genocide denial.
Well, you’re not wrong.
You know it is possible that both you and they are antisemitic?
A made up political spectrum doesn’t make it impossible for you to fall for the same politics of hate that they’ve fallen for.
Many in the pro-Palestinian movement have lost a sense of good judgment thinking their emotions justify anything they say or do. Others in the movement look the other way when this happens.
Take a good look at this Tucker Carlson drama unfolding. This is how most people see the pro-Palestinian movement right now. Rationalizing antisemitic shit. Does this help Palestinians? Nope. But that movement is going in a bad direction, and it’s starting to be more focused on hating Israel (and Jews in general) than on actually helping Palestinians. A lot of similarities to the MAGA movement, which claims to be about helping the middle class, but in actual practice is more about hating people. Right now the MAGAs are hating on the same people that people in the pro-Palestinian movement hate.
Many in the pro-Palestinian movement today will become the MAGAs of the future. Antisemitism is a hard thing to shake and has a tendency to take over all other thoughts by people infected with it.
I’m curious to know what I’ve said that’s antisemitic. From where I’m standing, there’s only one comment here that’s antisemitic. It’s the one that’s equating criticism of the nation of Israel for its ongoing slaughter of Palestinians with criticism of the Jewish people as a whole. All Jews are not Israeli’s, and criticism of Israel is not criticism of the Jewish people. Implying otherwise is a bigoted and cowardly attempt to shield a nation from accountability.
Every nation can and should be held accountable when it commits atrocities. If I were to condemn the Taliban for their misogynistic, regressive theocracy, no one would assume that I was condemning Islam as a religion or Muslims as a people. So, how can I do the same for Israel? Tell me the right way I get to say, “Israel has killed at least 40,000 people (probably closer to 85,000 in reality), mostly civilians, and it is disgusting that both major parties support this slaughter.” Let me know what way I can criticize Israel that doesn’t offend your delicate sensibilities, so we can finally discuss the fact that our nation is funding a genocide.
I didn’t say you were. Though promoting a false narrative about Israel committing a genocide (the casualty numbers are consistent with urban combat in other conflicts) is an indication that you aren’t really questioning the narratives you’re seeing on the internet.
Given that you’re resistant to doing any kind of introspection on whether any of your views might be stemming from antisemitic biases you are more susceptible to antisemitic beliefs than those who are willing to stop and consider things carefully. I mean look at JD Vance making a joke about how him drinking Mountain Dew will probably be considered racist be Democrats. You’re going down that line of thinking. It’s not good to think like JD Vance thinks.
You can avoid these traps by actually considering the possibility that some of the things you see on the internet are racist in intent and designed to make you hate certain ethnicities. Not everything on the internet is that way of course, but there is a lot of content that is. Many times someone is unwittenly sharing something with racist dog whistles without know they’re doing so.
The whole “they’re probably going to say I’m racist for this…” mentality is preemptively dismissing any form of criticism of a position about it potentially being racist. You’re creating a permission structure to be racist because anything that contradicts you is “just them making up lies about me being racist.” Yeah it’s the internet, people do falsely accuse others of being racist, just as people falsely accuse nations of genocide.
The right wing is constantly using rhetorical tactics involving getting the upper hand by making extreme claims. Preemptively declaring any opposition over potential racism in their narrative is automatically disingenuous. Constant appeals to emotion, selectively promoting facts that promote the narrative while ignoring facts that run counter to the narrative. These are the tactics of both the alt right and the pro-Palestinian movement. In fact it’s becoming difficult to categorize the pro-Palestinian movement as anything other than an alt-right movement. Both are convinced that Jews are planning genocides, they just differ on who the Jews want to commit genocide on.
Though promoting a false narrative about Israel committing a genocide (the casualty numbers are consistent with urban combat in other conflicts) is an indication that you aren’t really questioning the narratives you’re seeing on the internet.
Oh, this is just a normal urban conflict? That’s good. I thought that since a U.N. human rights expert said what was happening in Gaza was a genocide, the ICJ demanding Israel prevent Gaza from becoming a genocide, and that dozens of nations and NGOs recognize this as a genocide, this was probably a genocide. Luckily, you were here to tell me this was normal and that I shouldn’t believe everything I see on the internet. Thanks, random account! Your empty words, backed by no evidence, have shown me the error of believing in the reporting I followed from actual journalists!
In all seriousness though, you disgust me. Attempting to convince me that facts I learned, from reading and listening to hours of reporting, is just an internet narrative would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous. Your attempts to make me believe my sympathy for the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians that have been killed is actually rooted in antisemitism is cowardly and manipulative. And your false equivalence between calling for the end of a genocide and JD Vance’s weird comments on Mountain Dew is just pathetic.
You’ve built in your head a narrative that criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and rather than consider the possibility that you may be incorrect, you’ve taken it upon yourself to chastise anyone who criticizes Israel. You demand that everyone else reevaluate their own beliefs so that you don’t have to reexamine yours. And that’s led you to genocide denial. Great job buddy, great fucking job.
Your links are from nearly 6 months ago. There were concerns from people that don’t know what a war is. Yes, there were high casualty numbers when the IDF initially moved in, because there was a lot of combat happening between the IDF and Hamas. But after that the war became low intensity and the casualty numbers leveled off. If a country was committing genocide the civilian casualties would increase when there was no longer anyone there to defend them. We’ve seen the opposite trend in Gaza. High casualties in the initial stages when there was heavy fighting, casualties drop off when Hamas loses control of an area.
The UN expressed concerns about a potential genocide, but we haven’t heard much in the last six months. It’s because the genocide the UN had concerns about didn’t happen. Check your wikipedia link again. They may soon change the page from “Gaza genocide” to “Accusations of Gazan genocide in the Israel–Hamas war” because… well people are realizing the genocide narrative being heavily promoted didn’t actually materialize.
What do you suppose it would be like to be on the wrong side of history? What will historians say about people that wanted a war to be called a genocide in an obvious effort to foment hatred against a country? Only time will tell I suppose.
But at any rate the pattern of behavior is undeniable. The pro-Palestinian movement have the exact same behavior as the alt right. There’s a great many conspiracy theories shared between the pro-Palestinian movement and the alt-right, same distrust of media that doesn’t conform to their biases, same misuse of terms like genocide to create a violent fervor. At this point the only thing the genocide narrative is accomplishing is helping Hamas and friends recruitment numbers which will result in more violence in the future. Is this what you want?
The UN expressed concerns about a potential genocide, but we haven’t heard much in the last six months.
Well, maybe you haven’t, but today I read in the AP that the the U.N. chief called the destruction in Gaza the worst he had ever seen. His exact words were:
“The level of suffering we are witnessing in Gaza is unprecedented in my mandate as secretary-general of the United Nations. I’ve never seen such a level of death and destruction as we are seeing in Gaza in the last few months.”
He then went on to say that a two-state solution was the only path forward, and compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians to South African apartheid:
“It means that you have 5 million Palestinians living there without any rights in a state,” he said. “Is it possible? Can we accept an idea similar to what we had in South Africa in the past?”
“I do not think you can have two peoples living together if they are not in a basis of equality, and if they are not in a basis of respect — mutual respect of their rights."
Anyway, I guess this must be one of those antisemitic dog whistles you’re talking about. I must be a moron for believing every crazy thing being said by…[checks notes]…the Associated Press and the United Nations. I bet those are some of those racist conspiracy sources you’re talking about. From now on I’ll only trust reliable sources like yours, which is…[checks post]…“trust me bro!”
Also, speaking of sources, did you know that Wikipedia actually did the opposite of what you suggested? They voted to remove the words, “allegations of,” from the article because they decided that there was enough evidence to call it a genocide. Thanks for bringing that up, I forgot about that!
What do you suppose it would be like to be on the wrong side of history? I’m guessing you’re going to find out real soon, given that you’re resistant to doing any kind of introspection on whether any of your views might be stemming from biases. It’s a shame you lack the self-awareness to take your own advice and reevaluate your beliefs (beliefs which, again, include FUCKING GENOCIDE DENIAL). But maybe you’ll feel a bit better if you keep calling everyone else antisemitic and comparing them to the alt-right. Then you won’t have to think about the atrocities you’re supporting.
I didn’t say you were. Though …
Classic.
Just warning y’all about the dark path you may be heading down with all of this hatred. Pretending like a warning about where you’re going is some kind of propaganda tactic is a sign you might be too far gone already. Not much anyone can do for you.
There’s nothing false about all the dead civilians.
This is a horrible ad hominem attack and actively fuels racism.
Wanting Israel to stop its genocide is a good thing. Antisemitism is a bad thing.
If you insist on equating the two, antisemitism will stop being a bad thing. That would be bad.
A holocaust/genocide studies professor once told me there were two categories of holocaust deniers, and while the former were fools, the latter truly scared him:
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“It didn’t happen.”
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“It wasn’t a holocaust because they didn’t finish the job.”
This is veering into #2 territory when you view these deaths as some sort of portion that had “overcrowding.”
#2 is what defenders of Israel are saying today too
Don’t know why you’re being down voted. “It can’t be a genocide there are still Palestinians living in Gaza” is literally a line being used by commenters.
They’re the ones down voting it
I guess all the downvotes on your comment with no one offering another explanation is probably proof you’re right.
Probably because it’s not actually a common talking point.
Sorry just realized I replied a comment level up from what I meant to.
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You let in the Nazis, you’re gonna get Nazi ideology
You can have a little nazi ideology, as a treat … no, wait, shit!
Lemmy try another:
Do you want Nazis? Because thats how you get Nazis!Yeah, there we go.
Alright, so stay with here…
Cooper also framed the slaughter of millions of people, most of them Jewish, as a logistical failure
The article is spreading Holocaust misinformation too. Most of the victims of the Holocaust were not Jewish.
6 million out of 17 million isn’t a majority.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
It’s fucking infuriating that so many people keep repeating that bullshit. People legit believe it, it’s what we’re taught in schools even. But it’s just propaganda so kids grow up more likely to excuse Israel’s current genocides.
I was taught that it was the largest specific group targeted not that it was the majority.
And in this case it’s fine for the author to simplify. Because the specifics of the Holocaust isn’t the article focus. It’s about current day people denying it happened at all and their political affiliation.
Same, but it’s the framing of the number that they’re calling into question. As if to force people to say “only 6 million of the 17 million,” or, “if they’re lying about this, what else are they lying about?”
Truly devious and truly maniacal.
From the linked table, the largest specific group is Soviets.
Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, disability or sexual orientation For specified groups like the Jews, genocide was the Nazis’ primary goal. According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), the Holocaust was “the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators”.[1]
Including 7.8 million soviet civilians and POWs in the count kind of seems like a revisionist definition of what the holocaust was to include anyone killed in the war. To undermine how much focus was on the jews pre-war.
To be fair, the Soviet citizens were targeted because of their ethnicity. Slavics were considered sub human like Jews.
Then you’d have to also look at deaths before the war for every group…
Like, you get that right?
Do you just not know most of the death wasn’t till Nazis understood they were likely going to lose the war?
That’s not a rhetorical question. To understand how to best explain this it helps if I know this is something you’ve thought about more than clicking on the Wikipedia link from a social media comment 2 minutes ago.
Where do I need to start explaining stuff here?
According to museumoftolerance.com and their Holocaust Timeline, Hitler said during a Reichstag speech in January 1939:
if war erupts it will mean the Vernichtung (extermination) of European Jews
So before the war even started, when these people were already surviving in the world, eating, etc, the Nazis and Hitler already knew feeding them would be a logistical problem best solved by death?
The Chelmno (Kulmhof) extermination camp began operations on December 8, 1941, literally one day after Pearl Harbor, far before Germany was “losing” the war. And camps don’t just pop up overnight, especially ones that earn the denomination of being an extermination camp, so was this just more logistical foresight on behalf of those oh so kind Nazi officials?
From the same source regarding the Kulmhof Extermination Camp opening:
340,000 Jews, 20,000 Poles and Czechs murdered by April 1943
Or the March 17, 1942 Entry:
Extermination begins in Belzec; by end of 1942 600,000 Jews murdered
Wow, the German 6th Armored didn’t surrender at Stalingrad until January 1943, and the Allies didn’t invade until June 1944, so that’s an awful lot of “mercy killing” happening before the Nazis knew they were going to lose the war.
And FYI, just because the Nazis didn’t begin their extermination campaign until after the war began, doesn’t mean their actions don’t signal what their intentions were from the start: Dachau opened in March 1933, Jewish Germans were barred from military service in 1935, Jewish doctors barred from practicing medicine in 1936, immigrant Jews having their German citizenship status revoked, the Nuremberg Laws of 1935, Kristallnacht in 1938… Like, you see all this, right?
Where do I need to start explaining stuff here?
So I said:
Do you just not know most of the death wasn’t till Nazis understood they were likely going to lose the war?
And you link about less than a million deaths…
Do you think 1 out of 17 million is a majority?
Then there’s a big rant about other stuff you didn’t understand…
But I won’t get to that, one thing at a time because it’s concerning we’re going in the wrong way.
6/17 isn’t bigger than half, and 1/17 is a lot less than half, you need the top number to get bigger
Removed by mod
Removed, civility.
So, nothing but insults?
And accusing the people who don’t want to ignore the majority of Holocaust victims the whole ones denying the Holocaust?
I’m not the one ignoring 11 million deaths because they’re not Jewish.
Too chicken to answer my questions? Or did you finally realize you’re wrong?
Ok, so then what was the plan? If the killing was a mercy, and was expedited by Germany losing the war, what was the plan for the 17 million collective people? Because I provided such a dismally low number of under one million in response to your comment saying the only reason the Nazis started killing more quickly was because they were losing. And those one million (more, since I’m sure my source didn’t count all deaths, only those who were Jewish) mattered to people, so they mean no less than the other 16 million killed later during the war.
I’m waiting, I’ve provided sources regardless of whether you respect them, you’ve provided nothing to back up any of your claims, so why don’t you refute my apparently unfounded claims of you being a holocaust denier?
Is that civil enough for a discussion with a holocaust denier, moderators? I’m glad we have to respect the opinions of holocaust deniers, god bless tolerating the intolerant. 🙄
I’ve always heard the figure being 12 million total. I actually saw an older piece of material recently that mentioned the total as being 11 million.i agree that saying Jews were a majority is incorrect and misleading but I don’t think it’s intentional misinformation. It was the largest individual group.
but I don’t think it’s intentional misinformation.
Are you saying this one journalist who wrote the article wasn’t intentionally spreading it as propaganda this time?
Cuz I could believe that, that’s how 80 years of propaganda works.
Unless you’re as old as Joe Biden, it’s been getting spread longer than we’ve been alive.
But people genuinely believing it doesn’t make it fucking better, sure as shit don’t make it true.
Look at all the shit trump supporters believe, sincerity of belief is not as important as the factual merit.
God damn. Go touch grass. Why do you think it’s acceptable to get so antagonistic when people share a reasonable thought of their own?
Yeah I was talking about this one particular journalist.
So what is the total amount of soviets that were victims?
I read that. I mean the total that we’re only killed because they were Soviets and not for any other reason, ethnic, sexuality, etc.
And this is the only way you can find anything out?
Asking random people on social media?
It’s taken two hours so far, this is faster than you googling?
Are you not able to?
If it’s that you do t know how or are so bad at it that this is faster. Have you tried asking nicely? May e I cluding “please”?
I just don’t understand what the point is in what you’re doing here…
Ok, fuck right off with that attitude.
That link cites the holocaust museum defining the holocaust as the extermination of the Jews.
That quote seems to “benignly” recast the holocaust and eliminate over half of the deaths. Even with POWs excluded.
Removed by mod
The racism is just used to distract from the economic issues faced by the middle class, low information voters need to be educated about this.
The republican party is going to destroy America and then their rich will move overseas. You already have TX governors fucking off every time a weather event happens.
I did Nazi that coming
Lazy but wholesome.
That can be applied to pretty much everything I do.
Cooper also framed the slaughter of millions of people, most of them Jewish, as a logistical failure. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, he said, entered Germany into “a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners.”
“They went in with no plan for that and they just threw these people into camps,” he added. “And millions of people ended up dead there.”
Poor little nazis, kek.
That ‘historian’ is to be bullied from every college debate club.
Also aside from the death camps the Nazis ran executions squads, just lining up and shooting all the villagers once they captured a village.
There is absolutely no question about the Nazis intention of murdering people they thought to be inferior or inconvenient.
Their initial approximations how it should go is to clear the Soviet Union from human pests and make germans settle there with slavic genetical garbage as mere servants if not pets allowed to live and reproduce in set margins.
Such a great starting point to treat civilians right.
Hell, not even the fucking Nazis themselves claimed that they weren’t deliberately operating death camps. Here’s Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz:
Technically [it] wasn’t so hard—it would not have been hard to exterminate even greater numbers… The killing itself took the least time. You could dispose of 2,000 head in half an hour, but it was the burning that took all the time. The killing was easy; you didn’t even need guards to drive them into the chambers; they just went in expecting to take showers and, instead of water, we turned on poison gas. The whole thing went very quickly.
And here he is, after his trial, four days before his execution:
My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell, I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz, I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the ‘Third Reich’ for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me. May the facts which are now coming out about the horrible crimes against humanity make the repetition of such cruel acts impossible for all time.
Doesn’t really sound like the statement of a guy who was trying to claim it didn’t fucking happen, or that it was anything but a deliberate crime against humanity.
They’ve been called Nazis so much, they have to downplay what the Nazis did (and what they’d like to do). They can’t believe they’re becoming monsters.
Just when you think they can’t get more racist
Again???
Didn’t think they’d bring this one back until they released their ‘Greatest Shits’ album.
You’re not a REAL JEW unless you vote for the Republicans Rewriting the Holocaust!
This is the same demographic with the Q-anon stuff not shocking. Reality and history isn’t their thing.
We already getting another remaster of it?
Why? Haven’t the bystanders suffered enough?I guess the last one with space lasers was pretty wild with flashy CGI, but I can barely keep up with the ridiculous plot - now somehow Palestine is involved, and there is that cartoonishly evil dark Sith Sam thats puppetmastering it all, very directly and obviously, but nobody believes it. It’s just so much bs one and can take.
MSNBC - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for MSNBC:
MBFC: Left - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceSearch topics on Ground.News
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/josh-hawleys-ahistorical-christian-nation-nonsense-matters-rcna161078
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/fox-s-tucker-carlson-s-biggest-racist-conspiracy-theory-n1295212
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/tucker-carlson-nazi-darryl-cooper-rcna169809
