• Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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    5 months ago

    So hypothetically - if everyone in the world stopped buying and eating meat tomorrow you are of the opinion that the animal ag industry will continue killing animals well into the future without any income or incentive to do so?

    An event in the present (purchasing animal products) will financially support and incentivise people to kill animals in the future.

    Do you seriously not understand this?

    • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      An event in the present (purchasing animal products) will financially support and incentivise people to kill animals in the future.

      that’s not causal

    • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Do you seriously not understand this?

      my understanding of linear time, causation, and human behavior has led me to my current position. if you think you know something i don’t, i’d love to hear it.

      • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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        5 months ago

        Did you consider my hypothetical? How does your understanding of causation make sense of that?

        edit: sorry, I didn’t see your other reply.

          • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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            5 months ago

            That’s not how hypotheticals work. It’s just meant to expose the flaw in your logic. In this case you’re arguing that demand for a product is not related to supply. That when dvds came out and nobody wanted a vhs player anymore everyone kept making vhs players anyway because ‘that’s not causal’.

                • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  i also explained that free agent’s actions can only be said to be caused by their own will. that means that “demand” can never cause “supply” (nor, truly, the other way around), since both those terms actually reflect the willful actions of free agents.

                  • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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                    5 months ago

                    Ok, I get you now. That’s just obtuse pedantry. If the demand for animal products goes down, so will supply. This gives an individual the power to lower supply, to choose not to has the same overall effect as killing a few animals. The distinction doesn’t matter. Your actions have consequences whether you like it or not. Animal ag cannot survive without money and whenever you buy animal products you are giving it to them.

    • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      if everyone in the world stopped buying and eating meat tomorrow you are of the opinion that the animal ag industry will continue killing animals well into the future without any income or incentive to do so

      that’s a strawman. it is not what i said at all. i’m talking about causation and linear time.

      • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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        5 months ago

        But people wanting to consume animal products is what causes people to kill them. It doesn’t matter if your present want didn’t cause the death of whatever animal you’re eating, it will cause the death of the next one.

        • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          But people wanting to consume animal products is what causes people to kill them.

          no, it’s not. the only thing that can be said to cause the actions of a free agent is their own will. you are denying the free will of the people in the industry, but insisting that i be responsible for their actions. if they don’t have free will, then what makes you think i do?

          • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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            5 months ago

            Things are more complex than that, though. Imagine if I need some wood and I come across someone who has an axe. The man has no incentive to cut a tree down. I say to him I will give him three ponies to cut the tree down for me and he agrees. Who has caused the tree to be cut down? Everyone has free will in this situation and I would argue both parties are responsible and share the blame. If either party were removed from the equation the tree would stay standing.

            • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              it’s funny that you say that it’s more complex, then you give an example far simpler than the complexities of our current agricultural system.

            • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              this just isn’t analogous to how the system works, anyway. the financiers are operating with (calculated) risk, and willing to pay for meat from suppliers without a contract in place to sell it. to make this fit your analogy, the woodsman would need to just chop up trees and hope you come buy some wood.

              • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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                5 months ago

                It’s not meant to be. I was explaining why two people can be responsible for the same thing without ruining free will.

                • Victoria Antoinette @lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  I was explaining why two people can be responsible for the same thing without ruining free will.

                  but its so disanalogous to how our food systems work that it’s irrelevant.

                  • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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                    5 months ago

                    It’s not irrelevant because it has nothing to do with food systems. You said that if you were responsible for a dead animal then an abattoir worker has no free will. I was exclusively explaining the concept of shared responsibility, wherein two parties can be responsible for something while maintaining free will.