I think his point is that, if our only alternative to fascism is to vote for a senile old man who was forced upon voters without a primary, then this system can’t credibly be called democracy.
Its not about how old the candidate is, its about not having other valid alternatives when you dont like the candidate chosen for you.
Edit: just to make sure the point gets across. Imagine going to a restaurant, the waiter asks if you want to drink moldy water or toxic industrial waste. You see behind him lies an array of normal, refreshing beverages but sorry, you weren’t given those choices so you can’t have any of that. Thats basically this election.
We live in a first-past-the-post voting system. These choices, Biden and Trump, are in part the result of that system. We need to change to a different system like rank choice voting or approval voting. But despite being flawed, our system is still a democracy.
You can only continue to call this system a democracy by setting the bar very very low. Pointless to argue semantics though, better to argue substance. We won’t get to a better - more representative - democracy by working within the current system; we need to apply external pressure. People don’t feel that voting in this election will save democracy because they don’t feel there’s enough of it left to be saved. Voting in this election can at best stave off a total collapse to fascism, but that’s it.
Our democracy is a democracy. That is a fact. The most effective method to improving our democracy is using our democracy. US history has demonstrated this repeatedly. Our democracy is our most effective tool to prevent fascism, so we should fight to keep it as long as possible. The fascist movement will continue to grow until we defeat their ideas and abandon neo-liberalism. This means we need to elect Biden in 2024 and then elect a socialist in 2028. edit: typo
The most effective method to improving our democracy is using our democracy. US history has demonstrated this repeatedly.
Meaningful progress has only ever been made in the US after mass movements engaged in direct action and protests (often met with violent state repression), and even then the legislation that’s made is usually much less than the people wanted. This is not a sign of a democracy that functions for the people.
It is the sign of democracy for the people. All of the social, economic, and political progress in the US is thanks to movements that translated into legislation, amendments, and court rulings via our democracy. Without a democracy those movements would have hit a wall. Of course we need to continue to improve our democracy. We need unfettered majority rule in this country. It is functionally possible to achieve this, but people have to vote. The movements won’t translate into positive change if people skip voting.
If Biden wins this election in 2024 we will have a Democratic primary without a Democratic incumbent in 2028. The last two times that happened we were given a socialist to vote for in the Democratic primary. In 2028 we need to make sure whoever that is wins the primary. We can do that by spreading socialist and progressive ideas in the fours years between now and the 2028 election.
If your choices are vote for A and democracy ends or vote for B, it isn’t really a choice. If it isn’t a choice, it’s not a democracy. It’s political theater. Not unlike mock elections in dictatorships.
You’re fucked either way, both choices are pathways to the same destination. Just at different speeds/ different routes.
By electing Biden democracy continues and we will have the opportunity for better choices. There are ways to fix our problems, but we have to be willing to fight for them. If we choose to keep fighting we can avert self-destruction. In this case it means voting for a neo-liberal. That’s a small price to pay for a shot at a better society and averting death camps.
Democracy’s already gone if you don’t have a choice. Little difference in the long term between either candidate. We’re on the way to an authoritarian capitalist state much like China either way.
We had primaries this year. As per usual the incumbent president won their primary. Now the American people have two choices for president. With Biden we have a chance at electing progressives and socialists in 2026 and 2028. We will not have that opportunity with Trump.
Are you a bot? Keep saying the same thing without addressing what I’m saying.
A) right now the American has a choice between Biden and Trump.
B) you are claiming that you either vote for Biden or democracy ends
C) if there is no real practical choice, there is no real democracy.
Political theater. We’re becoming a warped version of Soviet style system. Mock elections, need to pretend to care about things you don’t actually care about, self censorship, etc.
Are you a bot? Keep saying the same thing without addressing what I’m saying.
Is there anything I could do to convince you otherwise? I have refuted these arguments multiple times. No matter how many times they are repeated they are still just as flawed.
you are claiming that you either vote for Biden or democracy ends
I am claiming that we have a chance to save democracy by voting in Biden in 2024. It is not a guarantee, but it will be possible to elect candidates who are not neo-liberals or fascists in 2026 and 2028. If Trump is elected in 2024 democracy will end. We would not even have this opportunity if we did not live in a democracy.
if there is no real practical choice, there is no real democracy.
Averting fascism and death camps is a real choice. Having the opportunity to build a better society is a real choice. There is still democracy for now.
edit: Also, the option to end democracy is a choice. It’s an option that can happen in a democracy. And there are fascists who want to choose this option. We need to out vote them.
Democracy is about choice. If we don’t have choice democracy is already dead. We are not fighting for democracy- it’s already gone. We are fighting about how the future authoritarian government will develop.
We have moved past neoliberal. We have transitioned into protectionist mergers between state + corporate power regardless of candidate.
Both candidates agree fully on this. Oil company profits have surged under Biden. Cooperation with big tech companies (for example banning competition or manipulating online speech) have happened under Biden.
You are under this mentality that this is a bump in the road. We have already started turning sharply to the right back when Trump was first elected and then we accelerated the shift during and after COVID.
Either way we’re going to see war, economic instability, and political radicalism. The game is over, we have lost.
I’m going to at least keep my human dignity and vote blank on the next ballot. I cannot in good conscience play a role in this conversion process.
I think his point is that, if our only alternative to fascism is to vote for a senile old man who was forced upon voters without a primary, then this system can’t credibly be called democracy.
It is still democracy. It doesn’t matter how old the candidate is.
Its not about how old the candidate is, its about not having other valid alternatives when you dont like the candidate chosen for you.
Edit: just to make sure the point gets across. Imagine going to a restaurant, the waiter asks if you want to drink moldy water or toxic industrial waste. You see behind him lies an array of normal, refreshing beverages but sorry, you weren’t given those choices so you can’t have any of that. Thats basically this election.
We live in a first-past-the-post voting system. These choices, Biden and Trump, are in part the result of that system. We need to change to a different system like rank choice voting or approval voting. But despite being flawed, our system is still a democracy.
You can only continue to call this system a democracy by setting the bar very very low. Pointless to argue semantics though, better to argue substance. We won’t get to a better - more representative - democracy by working within the current system; we need to apply external pressure. People don’t feel that voting in this election will save democracy because they don’t feel there’s enough of it left to be saved. Voting in this election can at best stave off a total collapse to fascism, but that’s it.
Our democracy is a democracy. That is a fact. The most effective method to improving our democracy is using our democracy. US history has demonstrated this repeatedly. Our democracy is our most effective tool to prevent fascism, so we should fight to keep it as long as possible. The fascist movement will continue to grow until we defeat their ideas and abandon neo-liberalism. This means we need to elect Biden in 2024 and then elect a socialist in 2028. edit: typo
Meaningful progress has only ever been made in the US after mass movements engaged in direct action and protests (often met with violent state repression), and even then the legislation that’s made is usually much less than the people wanted. This is not a sign of a democracy that functions for the people.
It is the sign of democracy for the people. All of the social, economic, and political progress in the US is thanks to movements that translated into legislation, amendments, and court rulings via our democracy. Without a democracy those movements would have hit a wall. Of course we need to continue to improve our democracy. We need unfettered majority rule in this country. It is functionally possible to achieve this, but people have to vote. The movements won’t translate into positive change if people skip voting.
Why on earth do you think you’ll be given the option to elect a socialist in 2028?
If Biden wins this election in 2024 we will have a Democratic primary without a Democratic incumbent in 2028. The last two times that happened we were given a socialist to vote for in the Democratic primary. In 2028 we need to make sure whoever that is wins the primary. We can do that by spreading socialist and progressive ideas in the fours years between now and the 2028 election.
If your choices are vote for A and democracy ends or vote for B, it isn’t really a choice. If it isn’t a choice, it’s not a democracy. It’s political theater. Not unlike mock elections in dictatorships.
You’re fucked either way, both choices are pathways to the same destination. Just at different speeds/ different routes.
By electing Biden democracy continues and we will have the opportunity for better choices. There are ways to fix our problems, but we have to be willing to fight for them. If we choose to keep fighting we can avert self-destruction. In this case it means voting for a neo-liberal. That’s a small price to pay for a shot at a better society and averting death camps.
Democracy’s already gone if you don’t have a choice. Little difference in the long term between either candidate. We’re on the way to an authoritarian capitalist state much like China either way.
We had primaries this year. As per usual the incumbent president won their primary. Now the American people have two choices for president. With Biden we have a chance at electing progressives and socialists in 2026 and 2028. We will not have that opportunity with Trump.
Are you a bot? Keep saying the same thing without addressing what I’m saying.
A) right now the American has a choice between Biden and Trump.
B) you are claiming that you either vote for Biden or democracy ends
C) if there is no real practical choice, there is no real democracy.
Political theater. We’re becoming a warped version of Soviet style system. Mock elections, need to pretend to care about things you don’t actually care about, self censorship, etc.
Is there anything I could do to convince you otherwise? I have refuted these arguments multiple times. No matter how many times they are repeated they are still just as flawed.
I am claiming that we have a chance to save democracy by voting in Biden in 2024. It is not a guarantee, but it will be possible to elect candidates who are not neo-liberals or fascists in 2026 and 2028. If Trump is elected in 2024 democracy will end. We would not even have this opportunity if we did not live in a democracy.
Averting fascism and death camps is a real choice. Having the opportunity to build a better society is a real choice. There is still democracy for now.
edit: Also, the option to end democracy is a choice. It’s an option that can happen in a democracy. And there are fascists who want to choose this option. We need to out vote them.
Democracy is about choice. If we don’t have choice democracy is already dead. We are not fighting for democracy- it’s already gone. We are fighting about how the future authoritarian government will develop.
We have moved past neoliberal. We have transitioned into protectionist mergers between state + corporate power regardless of candidate.
Both candidates agree fully on this. Oil company profits have surged under Biden. Cooperation with big tech companies (for example banning competition or manipulating online speech) have happened under Biden.
You are under this mentality that this is a bump in the road. We have already started turning sharply to the right back when Trump was first elected and then we accelerated the shift during and after COVID.
Either way we’re going to see war, economic instability, and political radicalism. The game is over, we have lost.
I’m going to at least keep my human dignity and vote blank on the next ballot. I cannot in good conscience play a role in this conversion process.