I feel like you’re ignoring what I’m saying when you just repeat the same arguments I already addressed. I’m not trying to dismantle the war industry, I don’t want to participate in it. I have no illusions about how intertwined almost everything in the US is with the military and “defense”. None of this makes working in and for that machinery any more palatable for me.
It boils down to a very personal choice I’m sure didn’t actually involve all those thoughts. It’s the choice between making more money in a job in the war industry or making less money outside of it.
I really love your black and white dichotomy of either in it or out of it. Really, the world must be very simple in black and white.
Unfortunately in the real world, where I work does not matter. The company will survive without me. The lowest-level cogs are completely disposable.
The reality of that means that if I don’t work here, somebody else will. My morals and ethics now put myself and my family at a disadvantage.
The American dream was mistold. It’s not work hard and live a great life. The truth is, it’s swallow your pride to survive, or watch other people do it instead. The more of your pride you’re willing to swallow, the better you survive. Thats all there is to it.
And where else should I go to support my family? Let’s look at the biggest employers in my region. Essentially it comes down to four pillars…”kill children”, “encourage addiction”, “boil the oceans”, or “sell slave-manufactured goods for insane profits”.
Absolutely, shit needs to change. But your bottom-up approach, attacking me personally, viewing me as your enemy because of the way I provide for my family, is not the way to do it. I know how far I’ve sold my soul. I know it’s far enough to realize that it doesn’t make one lick of difference in the way the world works. Either I sell that fraction of my soul, or someone else will. And in the end, I only get to choose to sell it to some other equally vile demon.
Where do we go next? Would you like to go shit on the single moms out there scrubbing bathrooms at Raytheon instead of Walmart? Clearly they only do it because they want to serve the machine, and not because they have great health insurance, stability, tuition reimbursement, and pays $3 more an hour. Or am I the bad guy because I’m a professional and solidly middle class? Where does the line get drawn?
I recognize we are well past the point of changing each others mind. Ultimately I just want to figure out where the fuck you get off judging me as the enemy for providing for my family just like you. I identify as progressive and I suspect you do as well. I don’t see how you justify this crabs-in-a-barrel mentality.
It’s not a black and white dichotomy to recognize a binary choice. You either work for a weapons manufacturer or you don’t, there’s simply no nuance there. It’s a personal choice you make to either do it or not. There’s no in-between, there’s no half-working for a weapons manufacturer. You do it or you don’t and it’s a choice you have. It might not be an easy choice and one option might have huge advantages but it’s still a choice between one thing or the other. This does not mean that all things are a choice between one thing or the other, just that this one situation is.
Unfortunately in the real world, where I work does not matter. The company will survive without me. The lowest-level cogs are completely disposable.
Again, for the third time, yes. The machine will exist whether I work there or not. That is not my point. I am not trying to dismantle the machine by choosing not to work there. I am expressing my disdain of working there. Can you please stop arguing why I can’t dismantle the machine? I am not trying to dismantle the machine. I am trying to express my unwillingness to work for a weapons manufacturer. Will the weapons manufacturer keep existing even though I choose not to work there? Yes. Will I choose to work for a weapons manufacturer which will exist regardless of me working there? No.
The reality of that means that if I don’t work here, somebody else will. My morals and ethics now put myself and my family at a disadvantage.
We are in agreement as that’s what I’ve been saying since my first comment. You made a choice between more money working for a weapons manufacturer and less money working for someone else. You chose more money and I find that choice reprehensible. You have lots of arguments why the choice is justified. I don’t think those are sufficiently convincing arguments for me personally to work for a weapons manufacturer. I am not a cog in a machine, I am a person with agency and I choose not to be a cog in this particular machine. You are a person with agency as well, by the way. You are not forced or coerced to work for your employer. You made a choice to do so and now you are justifying your choice to a person who wouldn’t make that choice.
The American dream was mistold. It’s not work hard and live a great life. The truth is, it’s swallow your pride to survive, or watch other people do it instead. The more of your pride you’re willing to swallow, the better you survive. Thats all there is to it.
I survive alright not working for a weapons manufacturer. Other people, also not working for a weapons manufacturer, make more money than I do. They might have a more stressful job than I do or bring better education to the table. I can live with that. I can rest easy, knowing that my work does not contribute to a massive pile of dead kids, though. That’s worth something, too, for me personally. Not for everyone, obviously, and I’m not trying to tell anyone how to live. I really am only expressing how I feel about this choice. I’m no preacher and my life is not a template for anyone else’s life. But I’m in a forum where people express themselves, expressing myself.
And where else should I go to support my family? Let’s look at the biggest employers in my region. Essentially it comes down to four pillars…”kill children”, “encourage addiction”, “boil the oceans”, or “sell slave-manufactured goods for insane profits”.
I sense a hint of black and white dichotomy here. I can only hope for your sake that the reality isn’t as dire as this sounds. I don’t know where you live so I can hardly refute what you’re saying. If that’s the actual choice you have, I would consider moving elsewhere if I were in your shoes but that’s easy to say, of course. Maybe I’d consider starting my own business, I really don’t know. In truth, I can’t tell if in the same circumstance I wouldn’t make the same choice as you. I probably wouldn’t try to palliate my choice by proclaiming the necessity of weapons manufacturing in order to keep the USPS in business, though. In any case, I’d keep looking for a less morally reprehensible job. That was a really bad argument if you consider how civil aviation exists and is used for mail throughout the world.
Absolutely, shit needs to change. But your bottom-up approach, attacking me personally, viewing me as your enemy because of the way I provide for my family, is not the way to do it.
I apologize if anything I said gave you the impression that I view you as my enemy or that I’m trying to attack you in any way. I’ve been trying hard to phrase what I’m saying to not be insulting or down-putting because I have no reason to insult you or put you down. I’m only trying to express my thoughts and feelings and none of them are hostile against you, honestly. I do not wish you harm or anything bad, really. If anything, I’m hoping you reconsider your choice of employer even though it is absolutely your prerogative and not my place to do so. I’m also somewhat realistic about my ability to change anybody’s mind on the internet.
Also, again, I don’t have any “bottom-up approach” as, again, I’m not trying to dismantle the war machinery.
I am not going to address your next few paragraphs because I believe you wrote them in anger over something I formulated in a way you perceived as an insult. I apologize for that. I do not mean to insult you. We disagree on this one thing while I’m sure we could find many more things we agree on. I’m trying to respectfully disagree because I do not disrespect you for the one choice I know you made that I don’t agree with.
I feel like you’re ignoring what I’m saying when you just repeat the same arguments I already addressed. I’m not trying to dismantle the war industry, I don’t want to participate in it. I have no illusions about how intertwined almost everything in the US is with the military and “defense”. None of this makes working in and for that machinery any more palatable for me.
It boils down to a very personal choice I’m sure didn’t actually involve all those thoughts. It’s the choice between making more money in a job in the war industry or making less money outside of it.
I really love your black and white dichotomy of either in it or out of it. Really, the world must be very simple in black and white.
Unfortunately in the real world, where I work does not matter. The company will survive without me. The lowest-level cogs are completely disposable.
The reality of that means that if I don’t work here, somebody else will. My morals and ethics now put myself and my family at a disadvantage.
The American dream was mistold. It’s not work hard and live a great life. The truth is, it’s swallow your pride to survive, or watch other people do it instead. The more of your pride you’re willing to swallow, the better you survive. Thats all there is to it.
And where else should I go to support my family? Let’s look at the biggest employers in my region. Essentially it comes down to four pillars…”kill children”, “encourage addiction”, “boil the oceans”, or “sell slave-manufactured goods for insane profits”.
Absolutely, shit needs to change. But your bottom-up approach, attacking me personally, viewing me as your enemy because of the way I provide for my family, is not the way to do it. I know how far I’ve sold my soul. I know it’s far enough to realize that it doesn’t make one lick of difference in the way the world works. Either I sell that fraction of my soul, or someone else will. And in the end, I only get to choose to sell it to some other equally vile demon.
Where do we go next? Would you like to go shit on the single moms out there scrubbing bathrooms at Raytheon instead of Walmart? Clearly they only do it because they want to serve the machine, and not because they have great health insurance, stability, tuition reimbursement, and pays $3 more an hour. Or am I the bad guy because I’m a professional and solidly middle class? Where does the line get drawn?
I recognize we are well past the point of changing each others mind. Ultimately I just want to figure out where the fuck you get off judging me as the enemy for providing for my family just like you. I identify as progressive and I suspect you do as well. I don’t see how you justify this crabs-in-a-barrel mentality.
It’s not a black and white dichotomy to recognize a binary choice. You either work for a weapons manufacturer or you don’t, there’s simply no nuance there. It’s a personal choice you make to either do it or not. There’s no in-between, there’s no half-working for a weapons manufacturer. You do it or you don’t and it’s a choice you have. It might not be an easy choice and one option might have huge advantages but it’s still a choice between one thing or the other. This does not mean that all things are a choice between one thing or the other, just that this one situation is.
Again, for the third time, yes. The machine will exist whether I work there or not. That is not my point. I am not trying to dismantle the machine by choosing not to work there. I am expressing my disdain of working there. Can you please stop arguing why I can’t dismantle the machine? I am not trying to dismantle the machine. I am trying to express my unwillingness to work for a weapons manufacturer. Will the weapons manufacturer keep existing even though I choose not to work there? Yes. Will I choose to work for a weapons manufacturer which will exist regardless of me working there? No.
We are in agreement as that’s what I’ve been saying since my first comment. You made a choice between more money working for a weapons manufacturer and less money working for someone else. You chose more money and I find that choice reprehensible. You have lots of arguments why the choice is justified. I don’t think those are sufficiently convincing arguments for me personally to work for a weapons manufacturer. I am not a cog in a machine, I am a person with agency and I choose not to be a cog in this particular machine. You are a person with agency as well, by the way. You are not forced or coerced to work for your employer. You made a choice to do so and now you are justifying your choice to a person who wouldn’t make that choice.
I survive alright not working for a weapons manufacturer. Other people, also not working for a weapons manufacturer, make more money than I do. They might have a more stressful job than I do or bring better education to the table. I can live with that. I can rest easy, knowing that my work does not contribute to a massive pile of dead kids, though. That’s worth something, too, for me personally. Not for everyone, obviously, and I’m not trying to tell anyone how to live. I really am only expressing how I feel about this choice. I’m no preacher and my life is not a template for anyone else’s life. But I’m in a forum where people express themselves, expressing myself.
I sense a hint of black and white dichotomy here. I can only hope for your sake that the reality isn’t as dire as this sounds. I don’t know where you live so I can hardly refute what you’re saying. If that’s the actual choice you have, I would consider moving elsewhere if I were in your shoes but that’s easy to say, of course. Maybe I’d consider starting my own business, I really don’t know. In truth, I can’t tell if in the same circumstance I wouldn’t make the same choice as you. I probably wouldn’t try to palliate my choice by proclaiming the necessity of weapons manufacturing in order to keep the USPS in business, though. In any case, I’d keep looking for a less morally reprehensible job. That was a really bad argument if you consider how civil aviation exists and is used for mail throughout the world.
I apologize if anything I said gave you the impression that I view you as my enemy or that I’m trying to attack you in any way. I’ve been trying hard to phrase what I’m saying to not be insulting or down-putting because I have no reason to insult you or put you down. I’m only trying to express my thoughts and feelings and none of them are hostile against you, honestly. I do not wish you harm or anything bad, really. If anything, I’m hoping you reconsider your choice of employer even though it is absolutely your prerogative and not my place to do so. I’m also somewhat realistic about my ability to change anybody’s mind on the internet.
Also, again, I don’t have any “bottom-up approach” as, again, I’m not trying to dismantle the war machinery.
I am not going to address your next few paragraphs because I believe you wrote them in anger over something I formulated in a way you perceived as an insult. I apologize for that. I do not mean to insult you. We disagree on this one thing while I’m sure we could find many more things we agree on. I’m trying to respectfully disagree because I do not disrespect you for the one choice I know you made that I don’t agree with.