Something that people should keep in mind is that the fees were lower for those “out-of-province” students in Québec than in their own province.
This fee raise basically brings it on par with what they would pay in their on province. One of the reasoning behind this law is that Québec shouldn’t be subsidizing other provinces way too expensive university system.
If you are living in Québec, university fees are quite cheap, and this doesn’t change.
The French vs English aspect is widely talked about, but not a whole lot is mentioned about the actual price hike.
The total fees for out of province students will still be lower than for out of province students in other provinces.
The fees for international students will still be lower than the fees for international students in other provinces.
In the only province where French is the only official language, French universities received less financing than English universities no matter the source, including from the provincial government. Donating to one’s Alma Mater isn’t part of the French Canadian culture for a ton of historical reasons, that leads to an university like McGill getting 200m$ from a single ex student and having over a billion sleeping in its coffers while the Université du Québec en Outaouais barely manages to offer basic services to its students.
Is it such a bad thing that the government asks that foreign students integrate themselves by learning the local language? That’s an incentive for them to stay and it prevents the issue of having some of them stay without being able to speak the language, pretty much forcing them to live in one of three urban areas and their suburbs (Montreal, Gatineau, Sherbrooke).
Imagine calling your fellow countrymen foreigners.
That’s just a taste of how badly Quebec’s nationalists try to create a rift. But they’ll be the first to turn around and tell you that Anglos are the problem.
Cambridge dictionary definition of foreign: belonging or connected to a country that is not your own.
See there’s this thing we call “a definition” and that word is appropriate to the situation and if you think “foreigner” is pejorative then you’re the one who’s got an issue…
Yeah totally, it’s not at all a well-known derogatory term used to other people’s.
Honestly if this is how French Canadians act, I totally get the reputation. Sounds like a bunch of downright exclusionary shit cunts.
“Oh no, French Canadians use words in their second language based on their definition, what a bunch of exclusionary shit cunts!”
You should really go sit down and reflect on the way you just acted.
They are foreign though, literally. They are from a different province, plus a very different culture. There isn’t much that separates someone from Alberta from someone from Montana or Massachussetts in that case, other than a passport.
So?
My neighbour is of a different culture than me, yet I don’t think of them as a foreigner.
I could cross the state border and find someone of a different culture in a different state with different laws, they’re still not a foreigner.
I mean you can Google the word “foreign” and the first thing that shows up is:
of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one’s own.
of or belonging to another district or area.
And Wiktionary gives:
Located outside a country or place, especially one’s own.
Originating from, characteristic of, belonging to, or being a citizen of a country or place other than the one under discussion.
Most Québécois are primarily francophones, while the rest of Canada are anglophones, it checks that box. And obviously Québec is a different district/area than not Québec. And someome from outside of Québec is of course from a different place, both being a different province and a completely different sometimes almost unrecognizable culture.
Idk man seems pretty reasonable to call them “foreign” seeing as how they’re from a different province. Plus “foreign” is a good catch-all word for anyone who isn’t from the jurisdiction.
Also yes if you go into another state you are foreign to that state. Not foreign country-wise, but foreign state-wise.
Heck, 100 years ago someone from four villages over was considered a foreigner…
French is a dead language, just admit it and move on with your lives already Quebec.
More and more people speak it on a global scale, you shouldn’t celebrate the disappearance of non English cultures.
Is it federally legal for to discriminate based on language? Don’t know, don’t live there, really curious, though.
Or is this one if those things that have to be adjudicated in the courts?
The law states that English universities can take in whoever they want, 80% must finish their degree having reached conversational level in French otherwise English universities will lose part of their funding (when they’re the universities that are the richest in the province).
That’s not language discrimination, that’s just bad journalism.
Thank you for clarifying. English is the official language of Canada, right? I know provences support French, but is it also an official language?
For instance, in the U.S. there is no national language. Most government forms are provided in MANY languages and/or can be requested in them.
I’m not sure in the US a university could require language profiency in a specific language. To be fair, though, I haven’t researched it. Maybe somebody can clarify if there are any federally funded ones that do?
If Canadian universities require conversational French for 80% of grads but the only official language is English, then I wonder what the legal basis is for the requirement? If both English and Fench are official national languages, I understand how that would be the basis.
Thanks for the conversation, I’m learning a lot.
Canada has 2 official languages, French and English. Provinces can have their own official language and so in Québec it is french
That makes LOTS more sense. Thanks so much!
Could a province have a first people’s, or other language as their official, if they wanted? Or is the option just the two national official languages?
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That’s all a smoke show. The real reason is their objective of nationalism.
You’ve got an issue with a cultural minority protecting its culture?
Nice spin
That’s exactly what it is though, they would never dare say the same thing about a first Nation community adopting similar rules.
Because in our treaties and agreements they are quite literally sovereign nations that have the right to self determination. Unlike the Quebecois, they actually were here first, and they really are a minority at risk of extinction. It’s so strange how French Canadians can’t understand nuance.
You think a group of about 7m surrounded by 360m people that speak another language aren’t at risk of seeing their culture disappear?
The Quebecois are also recognized as a separate nation by the federal government, just so you know.
It’s so strange how Anglo Canadians can’t understand their position in this.
That’s awesome, so now we’re just pulling random numbers out of the hat. 360m today, 8 billion tomorrow. By that logic, though, Anglo Canadians should have disappeared into American culture huh? Since we already speak the same language. Gee, I wonder why that’s never happened.
And just to be clear, the Quebecois are regarded as a nation, french is the official language, the feds are bilingual, and the Quebec govt conduct all operations in French, but somehow they’re also at risk of extinction is it?
Maybe nuance doesn’t translate well into French?
No you see the only groups that get to use the government to hurt other groups is the groups I personally like.
Humans are “meant” to be multilingual. That is norm for us. I still remember the small shock I felt when we were visiting my wife’s homeland for the first time and it turns out there is a language with under 6 million people, spoken only in one small region, that she knew plus the most common language of her country.
So yeah this is a group being punished for speaking their own language on land that they originally owned, plus anyone who wants to study there and doesn’t speak French. This is freedom? This is a just society? This is education? Schools are supposed to teach not force monolithic thought and punish people for being born “wrong”.
First Nations have no French requirements and are allowed to get service in English in Quebec if they want to, that’s a protected right.
Also very very funny that you would go from saying “Humans are meant to be multilingual” to “I can’t believe they have to learn a second language!”
It’s incredible how easy it is to point out the the Anglo hypocrisy.
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You’ve got an issue with people calling out racists and nationalists?
Can you explain what racism you are talking about?
The most egregious example would be Bill 21. Absolutely horrendous legislation that does nothing but marginalize those who are already marginalized. Despite what the Quebecois would like you to believe, it’s a piece of proxy legislation that aims to exclude religious and ethnic minorities from Quebec society, plain as day.
Just a quick look, that’s just the same as France’s law on religious iconography except only for government employees?
Trying to limit the danger of religion sounds like a good thing to me.
Firstly, this isn’t France. We have a charter of rights and freedoms that Quebec used a BS notwithstanding clause to get around so that they could pass the bill. Secondly, there’s practical and effective ways to curb the danger of religion without taking a) taking away people’s livelihoods b) making them choose between their faith and their job and c) forcing them to move out of the province to find a workplace that doesn’t go against Canadian ideals.
Did you read the bill?
Yes, I did.
Oh the double standards. The religious minorities should be protected at all costs, but the québécois don’t deserve that same protection. It’s always the ““inclusivity/minority activists”” that are the most against Québec when Québec itself fits inside this very definition. For the common good, please just fuck off.
It’s really funny how triggered you are. Believe it or not but French speakers aren’t a minority in Quebec. Wild, I know!
Yes, when that’s not what’s happening I’ve got an issue with it
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Great, then you shouldn’t have an issue calling out the CAQ and the nationalists that support them 👍🏼
So it’s wrong to be proud of your culture and to expect people that make the choice to live in it to actually want to become part of it?
Absolutely not. When a person receives their Canadian citizenship they agree to uphold the values of the Canadian constitution and they are also afforded the rights that it lays out. Remind me, is the right to freedom of religion included in those documents?
Nothing at all. Please wear a t-shirt that says White Pride on it and put a bumper sticker on your car to that effect also whatever dating app you use make sure it is shown. You can also get a tat that says it on your neck or arm. Please please do this. You know after you scream at a woman wearing a hijab an incoherent scream in that obscure language called French.
Can you explain? What do you mean by nationalism?
Anglo Canadians see Quebec’s interculturalism as nationalism in the third Reich sense…
The victim complex in action, exhibit A:
Quebec’s nationalism involves alienating non-French speaking Canadians including its own residents (eg Montrealers), creating a narrative that Quebec’s culture is at risk of being wiped out, reinforcing a victim complex, blaming its own minorities while complaining about being a minority, and by enacting discriminory laws that only aim to exclude those who don’t fit their image of what a Quebecer should be.
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France has a whole host of laws to keep France French as well.
Quebec and Montreal are wonderful because they’re so different and yet so close.
It’s hard for me to hold a grudge against them for that. It’s not like they’re saying you must speak French to go to school there - they’re just saying you have to try to learn French if you want to go to school there.
Exactly. The goal is to enable systems from out of province to better integrate the francophone society in the end.
This government (CAQ) has done many xenophobic thing. Restricting access to services in foreign languages to accommodate new immigrants is probably the best example of that. But this university thing, I don’t think it is. Most of the time, if you go and follow and Bachelor’s degree in another country, then you have to learn the language of that country because not every class is given in English only (of course there’s exceptions, but most of the time it’s like that). And you have to pay a hefty premium to go and educate yourself abroad.
This situation is way different, studying at university of Toronto is 16 000$ if you are from Ontario and 17 000$ if you are from another province. So it was often cheaper for people to go and study in Québec. This fee raise doesn’t have anything to do with xenophobia or anything, this is merely bring the prices to the “market value”. Yes there’s a bit of language protectionism, but it’s not all that inconvenient, and as someone already said, just trying to learn French is probably sufficient to get around it.
In short, I agree that there is xenophobic things that happens in Québec. I agree this provincial government doesn’t have a great track record on that front. But this change isn’t motivated by xenophobia, but other reasons. Up to you to decide if they’re valid or not in your opinion.
Speaking of xenophobia, you should look in the mirror.
Quebec trying to protect its francophone cultural heritage in a whole anglophone continent with so much American cultural influences through media, music and the internet is not xenophobic. It’s actually even a problem that other countries outside North America are facing.
In really sick and tired of the discrimination of Quebec and French Canadians coming from people like you who twist everything to fit their racist narrative.
The only reason you’re so mad is that you can’t come live a life here speaking the only language you know, English, and it pisses you off that you have to learn a second language. You simply wish the the French Canadians would finally just all fold over, speak English and the whole French Canadian culture to disappear so it could stop be an inconvenience to you. I think THAT’S pretty xenophobic, actually.
Je suis bilingue. Ma mère est francophone et je vis à Gatineau depuis 7 ans. Il n’y a que les francophone du Québec qui s’énervent quand je dis “bonjour hi”.
Y’a personne qui s’énerve pour ça réellement.
Source: the gazette.
Ouin. Non désolé. The gazette est un journal francophobe qui aime suciter la haine envers le Québec.
Pour revenir à ton commentaire, Peut-être qu’il y en a quelques uns qui vont s’énerver, mais certainement pas autant qu’il y a des anglophones ailleurs au Canada qui grimpent dans les rideaux dès qu’on mentionne le fait français au Canada et au Québec. Ce fil de discussion en est un très bel exemple.
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What other French areas in North America are you familiar with? The only one I can think of is maybe Haiti?
A chunk of New-Brunswick, a chunk of Eastern Ontario and a chunk of Northern Ontario, that’s pretty much it. There’s a couple of French communities left in Manitoba (when they were a big part of the province’s population until 100 years ago or so)…
Baton Rouge and New Orleans come to mind.
There is very little French spoken in New Orleans. There’s more creole, but is absolutely not used virtually anywhere as a part of daily life.
I haven’t been to Baton Rouge, but a quick googling suggests the same. It is not an official language and not part of daily life. It is heritage more than practice.
Which is what Quebec is trying to avoid.
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There is very little French spoken in Louisiana. There’s more creole, but it’s still single digit percentages. It is not common and their curriculums are certainly not in French.
The entire towns website for Berlin, NH is in English: https://www.berlinnh.gov/. There’s not even a French translation.
I think you are severely overestimating the prevalence of French as an official language in North America - and even as a lingua Franca.
You’re confusing all French together like it’s one monolithic language and everyone speaks the same dialect.
It’s like saying English in Scotland, in Australia, in Texas, or whatever are all the same.
They all have their district differences.
The same with Québec French. It’s not France French.
And they all have distinct cultures and music genres and poetry and literature and art that make up the whole local culture.
That’s what you don’t seem to understand in this whole thing.
Thank you for editing your response after figuring out from my other response that only saying “that is factually wrong” wasn’t good enough.
There’s so much I would want to say about your answer and why is all irrelevant that I could write a book.
You know, I was hoping I could find more civilized discussions here than on Reddit. But as soon as Quebec is mentioned absolutely anywhere on the internet, Canadians will come out in droves to talk shit about them all over the place. We are constantly facing this kind of narrative everywhere we look and it’s god damn tiring. It’s nothing short of discrimination and racism towards our people.
So fucking sick and tired.
It’s funny that whole communities get banned for acting the same way about people of other nations, but being racist towards Quebecois always gets a free pass…
Yep, breaks my heart every fucking single time.
Haters gonna hate, I guess.
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Just simply and factually correct.
Edit: OP’s original response was only
“This is factually wrong.”
I replied this to show OP that his answer wasn’t good enough and it worked.
North America includes Mexico, not to mention all the native populations that exist.
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Why are you so angry? Why all the swearing? Can you calm down and try to be a bit more civilized?
Oh… So lemmy is also a good place for Québec bashing… Awesome. I don’t think this latest move to attempt to slow the degradation of the French language in Quebec was very wise, but you just couldn’t resist pouncing on the occasion to attack big evil Quebec. Very civilized. 👌
Perhaps try discussing it properly?
“Discuss properly” is pretty fucking rich in a thread that starts with “we hate everyone from this place”.
Who said that? Are you too small to be the bigger person?
When all the online interactions you see concerning your culture are people who barely have any knowledge of it taking a shit on it, you tend to not have the patience to be the bigger person.
I’ve only ever really been to Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal and Canadian Niagara Falls. Montreal is fun and different, Toronto is like a baby NYC, Vancouver was cool but just ok. I’d go back to Montreal before I went back to any of the other places. Except in winter.
First person I’ve ever heard say they don’t want to live in Montreal, sounds like someone from Alberta
I don’t want to live in Montreal but that’s because I don’t like cities in general so whenever I go to Montreal I try to make it quick… Well, I take the time to eat at one of the tons of awesome restaurants 🤤
I myself don’t want to live in Montreal, but I do enjoy a visit once in a while.
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Quite the over generalization
That’s how stereotypes tend to work, yes
Most of Canada hating Quebec? 🤦🤦♀️🤦♂️
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The Canadian province of Quebec is introducing a plan that will hike tuition fees and mandate French proficiency for its out-of-province university students.
In a letter published on Thursday, Quebec’s higher education minister Pascale Déry said tuition for out-of-province students would increase from C$9,000 ($6,700; £5,200) to C$12,000 a year.
The 33% rise is smaller than what the province had originally proposed in October, which was to double the tuition fees for students from the rest of Canada.
The province will also require that 80% of students from outside Quebec reach an intermediate level of French by the time they graduate, and universities would face financial penalties if that target is not met.
Mr Saini added his university had not ruled out moves like opening another campus outside of Quebec or filing a potential lawsuit.
Concordia University President Graham Carr told the Montreal Gazette that he believed the plan would lead to a drop in the number of students, and would damage Quebec’s reputation.
The original article contains 429 words, the summary contains 164 words. Saved 62%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
All I know about Quebec is that they have several First Nations there. Why is a foreign language be mandated over those?
Foreign?
The official language in Quebec is French.
I think he understands that and is calling the French colonists foreigners to the native first nations peoples…
Yes, French is a foreign language to the Americas.
Then so are first Nation languages since we all come from Africa.
Lol, holy shit dude. You’ve lost the plot.
Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the “it’s a foreign language” argument.
There’s no universities in a first Nation language and the official language in Quebec is French. I would be the first one to vote in favor of teaching kids a first Nation language, there’s 11 families of them in Quebec alone so a common language is necessary and in Quebec that’s French.
Members of first Nations are still free to go to school in whatever language they choose and the headline is just bad, at university level everyone can go wherever they want, it’s the English universities that will lose financing if they don’t get 80% of students from other provinces and out of country to reach level 5 French (out of 12 levels to be considered perfectly bilingual), that’s just enough French to be able to understand an everyday conversation.
Do you consider that all other provinces do language discrimination because people can’t go to university there without knowing English?
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All this talk of Quebecois separatisme is giving me think DFW was a lot more prophetic than we thought…
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Frankly, good. Montreal was already becoming remarkably English and that has risks of encouraging Quebec secessionism. Same thing should happen for the Mayan language in Yucatan, Mexico.
Hey, @quinten@lemmy.world looking how this thread is degenerating into a complete shit show of Québec bashing, can we lock it down?
@quinten@lemmy.world This thread has turned into a complete shit show about hate and discrimination against Québec and its francophone population. Can you please do something?
Having a discussion != hate & discrimination
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French Canadians have a stereotype of being pretentious and I love it. Keep being odd Quebec.
Because fuck people who want an education and don’t speak a particular language.
They can still study in English if they want to, they just have to learn the local language.
Try to go to university in Vancouver without knowing a word of English.
Say this comment in a language spoken by a First Nation please.
What doe that have to do with the topic at hand? What you’re implying is nothing but a hypocrisy fallacy.
It means that it has to do with ethnic superiority. It isn’t that they are worried about the uniqueness of Quebec vanishing it means they are worried about their specific group not running things.
Exactly!!!
I speak both official languages fluently and I’m sad that a local first Nation language isn’t part of the curriculum starting in primary school.
It’s also pretty funny that you’re insisting on first Nations considering they are part of the few people that are guaranteed to be able to go to school in either French or English in Quebec.
Say this comment in a language spoken by a First Nation please.
Someone has problems listening and understanding in English. You should probably not attend university, nothing for you there. It might introduce you to new ideas.
Fuck Quebec
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