Baby, It’s Cold Outside. It’s such a fun song as the guy and girl go back and forth. Until you realize that he’s guilting her into sleeping with him. Eww!
The original film the song appears (Neptune’s Daughter) in actually sings the song twice. The first one is very clearly “I want to leave” vs “but you can’t.” He literally takes the hat off of her head, and she seems very irritated throughout.
The second is a woman trying to stop a man from leaving, to the degree that he ends up putting her clothes on by mistake in an attempt to leave faster. And, as assault of men often is, it’s portrayed for laughs.
The entire song is someone refusing to take “no” for an answer. At no point does the typically female role ever make an excuse to STAY, only to LEAVE.
Edit: No idea why “the song where a man stops a woman from leaving is a bit rapey” is a controversial opinion.
Watch the damn scene. She is trying to brush him off. She wants to leave, and he is not letting her. She is politely saying no, and he is politely forcing her to stay. Even if it is due to social pressure, let her fucking leave.
“Well maybe just a half a drink more” is said when he has just snatched the coat off her back and is still holding it. Her face is a picture of resignation, not coy flirtation. She then asks “say, what’s in this drink” and puts it down with a scowl on her face.
This is flirtatious by the standards of a Sean Connery movie.
I didn’t know that. Looked it up. It was only publicly released around the film, and only sung at parties before that. Also, he sold the song without his wife’s consent and it almost ended their marriage.
Nope. In the original scene in Neptune’s Daughter, she is actively trying to leave and he is doing everything he can to stop her. Note that she never makes an excuse to stay, only to leave.
Frank Loesser’s son, John, was interviewed about the song by the Palm Bean Post in 2010 that was reprinted on the official site for his dad. From the article:
“My father wrote that song as a piece of special material for he and my mother to do at parties,” says John Loesser, who runs the Lyric Theatre in Stuart, and is the son of legendary composer Frank Loesser (Guys and Dolls, How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying.)
Frank Loesser’s wife, Lynn, was a nightclub singer who had moved from Terre Haute, Ind. to New York in search of a career. She was singing in a nightclub when she met Frank Loesser around 1930.
The song itself was written in 1944, when Loesser and his wife had just moved into the Hotel Navarro in New York. They gave a housewarming party for themselves and when they did the number, everybody went crazy.
“We had to do it over and over again,” Lynn Loesser told her kids, “and we became instant parlor room stars.”
Performers started to take note of the song, and record covers of it. It’s also featured in the 1949 musical comedy Neptune’s Daughter as sung by Ricardo Montalbán and Esther Williams below. And in that movie, it takes an ironic tone since the movie takes place in a warm climate. It also earned Loesser an Academy Award for Best Original Song.
I didn’t know that. So I looked it up, and it seems the intent of the song is to tell their guests to leave. Also, he sold the song without his wife’s consent, and it almost ended their marriage.
Actually there weren’t any “rapey” elements at the time. They’re only there when viewed through a modern lense, completely ignoring the culture and standards of the time.
And the version where they tried to tone down the rapey elements was in 2019, shortly after the #MeToo movement. We are also having this conversation today, and not in 1949.
If you’re saying the standards of the time make it acceptable, I say that reflects really badly on the standards of the time. By the standards of the time, black people had fewer rights than white men. I hope to fuck we can improve upon the standards of the 1940s.
When people consume media it’s important to have context. Short-sighted inability to contextualize anything outside of our current standards doesn’t help anyone at all and actually makes understanding and moving forward more difficult.
If you’re saying the standards of the time make it acceptable, I say that reflects really badly on the standards of the time. By the standards of the time, black people had fewer rights than white men. I hope to fuck we can improve upon the standards of the 1940s.
The standards were quite different that’s for sure. That’s why it’s important to understand that it was a different era. An unmarried woman willingly staying with a man was destroying her reputation at that time even if she wanted to.
I understand that the film was not problematic for the time period, and it was seen as romantic. I also understand that the fact it was not seen as a problem was a fucking problem. And I understand that the only way to overcome a problem is to acknowledge that there is one. Hindsight is a fucking benefit, and with the benefit of hindsight, that song is pretty fucking rapey.
Once again, the song was played TWICE in the movie, and the second one was sung with a man being convinced to stay. It was not about reputation. It was about not wanting to be there.
Why are you so insistent that the woman saying no actually wanted it?
Because in the context of the song, she’s saying she wants to stay. I’ve never seen the movie you’re talking about so maybe it was played differently there but when the song was released it was obviously a duet between two people who wanted to “do stuff” but were unable to due to norms and societies judgement.
Why are you so insistent on portraying the woman as a victim and the man as rapist when that’s clearly not what was intended?
…No she fucking isn’t. She never says she wants to stay.
I simply must go (Baby, it’s cold outside)
The answer is, “No” (But, baby, it’s cold outside)
She says no. He ignores her. I don’t give a fuck what was intended, I only care about what was said. What was said was a violation of consent. If you want the intent to reflect in the song to a modern ear (which are the only ears we have) then change the lyrics.
Yeah I’m familiar with the reddit argument I just think it’s half the story. It was written by a husband and wife but you clearly have an axe to grind so go off king.
Baby, It’s Cold Outside. It’s such a fun song as the guy and girl go back and forth. Until you realize that he’s guilting her into sleeping with him. Eww!
No, it is about both people coming up with excuses for her to stay when social expectations mean staying scandalous and everyone else would gossip.
The original film the song appears (Neptune’s Daughter) in actually sings the song twice. The first one is very clearly “I want to leave” vs “but you can’t.” He literally takes the hat off of her head, and she seems very irritated throughout.
The second is a woman trying to stop a man from leaving, to the degree that he ends up putting her clothes on by mistake in an attempt to leave faster. And, as assault of men often is, it’s portrayed for laughs.
The entire song is someone refusing to take “no” for an answer. At no point does the typically female role ever make an excuse to STAY, only to LEAVE.
Edit: No idea why “the song where a man stops a woman from leaving is a bit rapey” is a controversial opinion.
I think you are mistaking the desire to leave as a personal desire and not an obligation due to social pressure.
The socond set of back and forth is all about other people’s expectations and then hesitsting.
Watch the damn scene. She is trying to brush him off. She wants to leave, and he is not letting her. She is politely saying no, and he is politely forcing her to stay. Even if it is due to social pressure, let her fucking leave.
“Well maybe just a half a drink more” is said when he has just snatched the coat off her back and is still holding it. Her face is a picture of resignation, not coy flirtation. She then asks “say, what’s in this drink” and puts it down with a scowl on her face.
This is flirtatious by the standards of a Sean Connery movie.
The song predates that by five years.
I didn’t know that. Looked it up. It was only publicly released around the film, and only sung at parties before that. Also, he sold the song without his wife’s consent and it almost ended their marriage.
Ughhh, no no no no no. It’s them debating on what excuse she will use so the community doesn’t slut shame her!
Nope. In the original scene in Neptune’s Daughter, she is actively trying to leave and he is doing everything he can to stop her. Note that she never makes an excuse to stay, only to leave.
The song predates that by five years. https://www.goretro.com/2016/12/why-baby-its-cold-outside-is-not-about.html?m=1
I didn’t know that. So I looked it up, and it seems the intent of the song is to tell their guests to leave. Also, he sold the song without his wife’s consent, and it almost ended their marriage.
There is a version out there where they try to tone down the rapey elements. Sadly, it’s pretty clunky how they do it.
Actually there weren’t any “rapey” elements at the time. They’re only there when viewed through a modern lense, completely ignoring the culture and standards of the time.
And the version where they tried to tone down the rapey elements was in 2019, shortly after the #MeToo movement. We are also having this conversation today, and not in 1949.
If you’re saying the standards of the time make it acceptable, I say that reflects really badly on the standards of the time. By the standards of the time, black people had fewer rights than white men. I hope to fuck we can improve upon the standards of the 1940s.
When people consume media it’s important to have context. Short-sighted inability to contextualize anything outside of our current standards doesn’t help anyone at all and actually makes understanding and moving forward more difficult.
The standards were quite different that’s for sure. That’s why it’s important to understand that it was a different era. An unmarried woman willingly staying with a man was destroying her reputation at that time even if she wanted to.
I understand that the film was not problematic for the time period, and it was seen as romantic. I also understand that the fact it was not seen as a problem was a fucking problem. And I understand that the only way to overcome a problem is to acknowledge that there is one. Hindsight is a fucking benefit, and with the benefit of hindsight, that song is pretty fucking rapey.
Once again, the song was played TWICE in the movie, and the second one was sung with a man being convinced to stay. It was not about reputation. It was about not wanting to be there.
Why are you so insistent that the woman saying no actually wanted it?
Because in the context of the song, she’s saying she wants to stay. I’ve never seen the movie you’re talking about so maybe it was played differently there but when the song was released it was obviously a duet between two people who wanted to “do stuff” but were unable to due to norms and societies judgement.
Why are you so insistent on portraying the woman as a victim and the man as rapist when that’s clearly not what was intended?
…No she fucking isn’t. She never says she wants to stay.
She says no. He ignores her. I don’t give a fuck what was intended, I only care about what was said. What was said was a violation of consent. If you want the intent to reflect in the song to a modern ear (which are the only ears we have) then change the lyrics.
Yeah I’m familiar with the reddit argument I just think it’s half the story. It was written by a husband and wife but you clearly have an axe to grind so go off king.
Have a nice night.