Whatever beef… you have with veganism, I don’t need to combat you. There are people that do know the middle way, and live it as much as possible, without needing to be taught. And there are people who will find it and learn from it. You may be one of them, but the energy you put into this back and forth isn’t worth the time, honestly.

You should REALLY write a book, because there is nothing but anguish on your part to gain while messaging me, just as I realised there was nothing more to say 3 weeks ago. It’s quite a shame you haven’t noticed I checked out a while ago upon catching your anecdotal rhetoric, what if I just don’t believe you, you’ve given no evidence to support your claims, and they’re BOLD claims.

I’ve felt no need to explain myself, and if you feel morally inferior, that’s on you. I’m not morally superior, but I strive to be better than I was. There’s the difference.

I wish you the best in your life, even while contributing to unnecessary suffering while using a fantastic brain to justify it.

True, actions speak. So I do what I can. You probably don’t but that’s an assumption I admit.

You’ve got a lot of assumptions, but that’s OK. Like people choosing to eat meat. I don’t think that, as I say, you’re fine to believe the assumptions you make are fact. Even if they’re anecdotal. Like people don’t need to be educated. I disagree. And it’s proven by the rhetoric used in discussing PETA.

Your “most vegans” argument is moot when as a vegan, the discussions surrounding rewilding are far more common than your slice of a piece of what I’ve talked about with them. As I reinstate, it’s simply anti vegan rhetoric that you’re so on board with, your world view is rocked, and can’t see the forest from the trees.

For clarity, I don’t think you’re an idiot or uneducated, just misguided and have been misinformed for so long, your very core is against the idea, and you’re smart enough to justify why you feel like that.

At the end of the day, you are against veganism, that’s cool imo, but I do hope one day people like yourself can see the fight against oppression doesn’t stop at humans.

You’re fine to believe all that, it just comes across as though you’re assuming everyone who eats meat has done the due diligence in finding out what happens behind closed doors. That’s not the case, and it’s too obvious you’re wrapped up in your own views to ever change based on what one guy tells you on the Internet. You have to do the work yourself, but only if you want to, which by now, you can’t.

Which is OK, people who care are putting in the work, and the world will be better for it.

I hope you find compassion one day, because I’m certainly not telling you why you should be.

So, here we are.

You said your piece, and it turns out you’re completely wrong in your assumptions, and instead of addressing that fact, and re-engageing me, you’ve ignored what I replied with. You stroked your ego initially by not engaging with me and addressing every one else in the thread, in a very shallow way I might add, but I do wonder how your ego is doing now? This is a potential learning point for you, but only you can decide to become better than the person you were a few days ago. I do hope.

Maybe you’ve just learnt the term sealioning, and it’s your word of the week. You might carry on lambasting people based on your misguided interpretations, but I have hope you’ll one day think critically about this interaction, and move forward with a new understanding.

I’ll go out on a limb and assume you’re American, young, and just immature and naive enough to think you have all the answers, which from my experience leaves you an “all or nothing” attitude, and so everything is a fight for you.

Unable to see nuance in conversation, especially over the Internet where context is very easily mistaken, I’ll give you some friendly, human to human advice; sometimes people just want to learn, and not everything is a fight you have to take.

Based on the aggressive tone of your comment, seeing a legitimate question as a perceived slight at best, you might already be set in your ways.

To put it bluntly, you saw that you should gatekeep a learning moment for someone else, probably more or less on your side, trying to understand the nuance of the conversation.

I read something on here that makes a lot of sense to me, and so I’ll repeat it here. The America DEI mentality is anything but inclusive, and is very confrontational to the point of working against what it’s supposed to defend.

I recommend you read Aldous Huxleys:The island, and try to understand that compassion, not baseless vitriol, is the way we progress as a species.

If you take anything away from this, coming from someone far further along the left leaning path you’re quite clearly on, to me you’re just as bad as the people you vilify, such as the police in America. Your reaction without due cause is just as bad as theirs, thankfully you haven’t nearly the power or influence they have, and if you are truly are as liberal as you think you are, I believe you’re at least on the right path, even if your delivery and methods are synonymous with the right.

I wish you the best for the future.

Yours sincerely, the biggest advocate for a true functional utopia you’ll ever have the pleasure of interacting with, online or in person.

Peace.

Well then, here we go…

These stupid fucking liberals have no plan for what to do after the police are removed

I have no idea what the outcome would be, I’m pretty new to this line of thinking so I thought if I ask someone I might get an answer I can move forward with. But what is the plan? Again, genuinely asking because I want to learn.

So let’s ask them what do we do afterward?

Well yeah, what else do I do if I want to engage and learn?

Then we either deconstruct every answer they provide or call them out on having no answer

I promise you, I couldn’t begin to deconstruct any answer, because this is literally the first time I’ve engaged in this line of thinking. I’m from the UK, haven’t had the best experience with police myself, and due to some inherent distrust of self proclaimed authority without boundaries, it’s in my interest to be aware of the options for the future.

Then disingenuously dismiss the idea of getting rid of police as ill thought out and immature when we never had any intention of conceding the point to begin with, because we want police to continue subjugating and abusing people, because we are bigots

I’ve not got a point to concede, it’s completely my opinion, based on my knowledge of current society that we need them for some sort of order.

The only answer I can give you here is I read Aldous Huxley:The island when I was younger, and it shaped the way I think to some degree. As idyllic an idea he portrays, the island Pala, I’ve been living in accordance with the principles he writes about, and leading by example. It’s caused me mental anguish for 2 decades that humanity is moving in the opposite direction, been called a dreamer and utopian thinker by some friends I’ve grown up with, and since distanced myself from them, cultivating friends and connections that can see the potential of humanity. I’ve identified how much of the world is wrapped up in a selfish attitude towards their own life, and I’ve felt like I’m fighting a losing battle for 20+ years, I’m an absolute wreck because of it, my life is in shambles because I’m let down again and again, day after day, year after year, decade after decade.

Because their justification for having police is:

My justification for having police is based on my life having police in it, nothing more. I’m saying here that I want the world aldous writes about, regarding Pala. I’ve been striving for it, but every sign has shit on my thought that we COULD have that world, and I’m a mental breakdown machine because the reality is a select few have propagated the idea that selfishness is king, and the rest of humanity is on board. I will say I do believe certain institutions are beneficial, such as education, healthcare, scientific institutions (so that we better understand the universe we find ourselves in). But I’m a complete noob when it comes to talking about this, so I could be missing the mark, I don’t KNOW. Its just my opinion.

And ignoring the fact that bootlickers like him are deeply insulting the intelligence of everyone else in the discussion and this clown is clearly NOT being nice at all because he’s advocating for your brutal subjugation under the jackboot of sadistic racists that only want to bully, abuse, rape and murder you, other individuals have already answered the question effectively, so why am I going to entertain scum like him?

I’m sorry if I insulted yours and everyone else’s intelligence by asking, but even now, I’m not looking for a fight in this. I was trying to be diplomatic in my question, if not overly open to learning about it, and with my lack of knowledge in this area I’ve clearly engaged in the wrong way. Whether it be the way I asked, or if I may say, you’ve encountered so many disingenuous people regarding this, which I can believe, you aren’t used to people being genuine. I really don’t mean to offend in saying that. I’m vegan (how do you know someone’s vegan? meme on me idc) and I’ve sometimes found myself being reactionary to genuine questions about “plant feel pain” etc, that I’ve initially disregarded people, before they’ve told me they read it somewhere and they don’t really know what to believe, and so are asking for my take.

If you can point me to other individuals that have answered effectively, I’ll read and read and read before I engage again. You’ve written me off as scum, but I’ve not written you off, because I’m not that guy. I’m not the guy to read what you put and take offense, or want to push back, or ignore your harsh words, however incorrect, and further an agenda opposing yours. I’m more than likely that one guy, in a sea of selfish fucks you’ve encountered, that is just trying to learn about how we can get to Pala.

How about instead of wasting our time sealioning to push a line of reasoning designed to manipulate our fears and put down our self esteem and self worth in order to convince us to accept an obviously failed institution that causes nothing but harm and abuses us in horrific ways, you take your fake attitude and go fuck yourself with it?

I’ve not designed anything, it was pure sincerity. I’m not trying to manipulate you. On that note, I read Richard Dawkins:the selfish gene at 13 years old. My first job at 15 was in retail In a high end department store. I was trained to sell stuff, up-sell everything I could, and make some already rich fuck even more money, while I was grafting my ass off for ~£3.50 an hour (2005) I came across the concept of social engineering around the same time and realised I had a choice, I can socially engineer people to benefit me, or socially engineer people to benefit themselves. And as a dumb af 16 year old, I related it back to the selfish gene. Selfishness, or altruism. I have a choice, and chose altruism. That’s the only manipulation I do (I’m a human living in this world, so I’m not perfect)

I grew up in a good home, with a mother that I can honestly say, in my hyperbolic opinion, is love incarnate. She poured so much love into me that when I grew up and started to think for myself, I realised I’m so fucking alone in this fight that I have to be the example and give that love back to whoever I can, and whoever needs it. I’ve been fucked over and over for giving pieces of myself to bring other people up, just to be abandoned by the same people, that I’m a shell of a human, still trying to get to Pala.

I’m sorry for the essay, I didn’t expect to be writing all this. You call out my “fake attitude” and said “go fuck yourself with it”. There’s no need, because the world had fucked me for 2 decades now, because of my real attitude.

I hope you respond with an answer to my initial question, or at the very least, check your assumptions.

If you’re reaction to reading all this is “he can’t be serious, no one is like this, he must be talking the biggest amount of bullshit to save face”

I am serious. I am like this. Because if I give up now, I might as well top myself.

Peace.

Edit: I’ll give you a day to reply. If you don’t, I’ll give my opinion on you, because that’s all you have. An opinion. Based on speculation from past experiences in your life, I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, even when that same grace wasn’t offered me. And your opinion is very misguided.

Let’s take the thought a step further and ask; who’s existence wouldn’t prevent the meaningful enforcement of the law?

IMO police, or something to that nature, are pretty necessary in today’s society, but the boundaries they have, are stepped over time and time again, without the proper repercussions.

What’s your take?

Hanlon’s razor my friend. Till more evidence, they’re just fucking idiots.

Edit: I reserved judgement, but after further reading, signs are pointing to sabotage, still, not conclusive.

They’re a case study in antivegan rhetoric, don’t worry about them.

Hmm I was 27 years a meat eater, advocating for meat consumption in the face of a vegan mate. Saying things like “we need a little bit of meat in our diets…they’re killed humanely…etc”

Took me one moment of realisation, then I dunno, I just tried, not even that hard, vegan 7 years now.

I can see that the transitional foods are a good stepping stone, but imo, the second you see inside the animal agriculture industry without any blinders on (biases), you’ll choose to act within your life, if you have the compassion/empathy to.

If someone sees the reality of what goes on behind closed doors and continues to consume animals in much the same way, it says more about that persons internal morality than anything else.

Nothing of value to add?

Peace.

And you still support animal abuse when you don’t have to.

Take care, and try and lead a better life mate.

It’s OK. Your veiled attempt at good faith discussion is textbook, so was expected.

It’s not my goal to make YOU individually vegan. Others can read and evaluate my reasoning, and by extension, the lack of yours.

I advocate for widespread prolonged de-use and eventually abolition of animals as objects in societies that don’t need to.

What you’ve amounted to saying is “if the world can’t be 100% vegan, why try?”

Let’s try this then-

Me: “respect women”

Misogynist: "You realize we don’t want to do that, and aren’t going to, right?

Unless both you and I agree on regulation, misogyny will continue uncontested.

I think we need better regulation, do you? Are you willing to accept that I won’t become a feminist, and take the compromise of continued sexism with strict punishment for female abuse?"

Or this one’s good-

Me: “don’t be racist”

Racist: "You realize we don’t want to do that, and aren’t going to, right?

Unless both you and I agree on regulation, racist will continue uncontested.

I think we need better regulation, do you? Are you willing to accept that I won’t become a non-racist, and take the compromise of continued racism with strict punishment for lynching?"

If the feminist movement met up against people saying what you’re saying, what do you think their response would be?

And similarly, what would MLK say to you?

No, before you call out my comparison, I’m not comparing racism to sexism to animal abuse. I’m comparing the rhetoric used to defend the acts themselves. And it’s awfully similar.

In summation; I choose consistency in my morality, based on this: if the topic is different, but my rhetoric to justify is the same, check my biases.

People are just simply inconsistent with their justifications, mainly due to detachment from the reality.

Not worth my time.

Please try and lead a better life.

But what good is worrying?

Become vegan and actually act.

“But then you wouldn’t get all worked up about it”

READ: “You’re right”

Take care mate, it’s only a post. Peace

Not bad, both easily plausible. Next time you disagree, offer a civil counterclaim and it’s more likely to go down well.

How hard was that?

Seems like a fair assessment, even if it’s unprovable. Not a bad heuristic to assume things get adopted from the biggest show to have ever aired.

You got a counter claim?

Annnnnd you just went full PETA on me.

What does this mean? If you can’t challenge what I put, and resort to ad hominim, this is just textbook anti peta parroting whatever supports your narrative…

I’m a huge animal lover

Oh awesome me too! How long have you been vegan? :)

Yeah I’ll be honest, i thought exactly the same as you about PETA before going vegan. But if you’re vegan, you’re intent on reducing the suffering of animals right? So it’s not too much of a leap to imagine a world where the people with the most money and the most to lose have orchestrated an incredibly effective smear campaign.

I’m giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming you’re here in good faith. As a fellow vegan, you must understand the commodification of sentient beings is absolutely unnecessary in 2023

The reason their kill shelters are so high is literally in the info dump above. If you don’t want to read that’s fine, but you have no valid argument till you do.