The claims of most commercial industries should not be trusted. I prefer academic sources, or at least those that are more energy agnostic.
Battery swapping will explode the logistical and resource requirements of BEVs. It makes the problem even worse.
I’m sure people said the same about gas stations.
Airplanes will probably use some combo of e-fuels or LH₂[1] setup.
I disagree with the latter part of that. I’m sure LH₂ will be tried, and it might temporarily prove effective under current conditions (with cheap, untaxed black and brown hydrogen) but as soon as you start trying to fulfill that with green hydrogen it just won’t be efficient enough.
Who knows though. Hydrogen right now is mainly a byproduct, so maybe there is some scope for that excess cheap hydrogen to be used in the short to medium term.
Renewable energy is leading to vast curtailment and excess production.
That is exactly what we should be aiming for. It might be slightly less commercially palatable for renewable generation businesses to be running at curtailment, but what we need right now is to build a large excess of renewable generation. The wind is always blowing somewhere, and (during the day, when most power is used) the sun still shines through the clouds.
Extrapolating from the latest UK National Grid’s Future Energy Scenarios report[2], we need to focus on building an excess of renewable generation as quickly as possible to get off fossil fuels as quickly as possible. Once we have the excess, we can pad out our generation portfolio with nuclear. Then, when the nuclear is ready to start generating, there is every likelihood that demand will have grown to the point that our excess renewable generation will have become the current requirement.
The report[2:1] does include significant use of hydrogen, but that is focused on heating and high energy applications. Transportation is a ridiculously large sector that does not benefit from the inefficiencies of hydrogen.
Large scale storage of hydrogen is done with natural occurring salt caverns. These cost far less than just about anything else ever conceived.
That’s a new thing to me, I’ll have to read up on that. I’d appreciate any sources you could offer.
My blind guess is that it is similar to elevated water storage in feasibility, though. In particular, investors might not be interested in developing the technology.
Again, if the goal is to phase fossil fuels, you would go hard in favor of green hydrogen, alongside many other ideas. You would not oppose any green energy ideas.
I’m all for green hydrogen production. The issue I take is with the reckless expansion of hydrogen consumption. More specifically, I feel that many people who work with hydrogen are too keen to expand the consumption market, because doing so benefits their industry commercially.
Edit: Damn, just saw you’re on kbin, which doesn’t have the citation function. If you click the 3 dots and select “copy url to fediverse” you can see what I see, or alternatively click here.
Edit2: I just realised that we’re commenting on an article about hydrogen heating, and that coincides with my main source saying that hydrogen heating should be developed. Maybe I should give the article and its heating technology more leeway. Nonetheless, I remain firm that hydrogen in transportation is not really a viable solution, all things considered.
Dammit, for a moment there I thought you’d done some funky new markdown code to write “LH₂”. But I bet you didn’t know about the citation function that lemmy has - which apparently even works out of order (check the comment source). ↩︎
A lot of those “agnostic” sources are secretly working for the BEV companies. There’s a lot of misinformation out there. Anyways, given that a fuel cell is vastly more efficient than a conventional ICE, there shouldn’t be an issue on efficiency. FCEVs are more than good enough. Anyone bringing this issue up as a problem is either confused or has an agenda. After all, FCEVs are also EVs.
Gas stations are much cheaper than battery swapping. In fact, that is the main argument in favor of FCEVs. Replacing existing gas stations with hydrogen stations is a much cheaper solution than putting up millions of charging stations, battery swapping stations, DC fast charging stations, etc.
I’m on Kbin FYI. It mostly works for my needs.
Excess green energy will likely flood the system. We will have an overabundance of all types of green energy, including hydrogen, in the long-run.
Critics of hydrogen are basically contradicting themselves. If you admit the need for energy storage in the form of hydrogen, you are also admitting the existence of very cheap hydrogen. That will be available for a variety of tasks. It will become the go-to solution for anything that needs a chemical fuel. If it is cheap enough for heating or steel production, it will be cheap enough for transportation solutions too.
A lot of those “agnostic” sources are secretly working for the BEV companies.
The kind of agnostic sources I was referring to are like the one I provided - system operators, who don’t really care what provides the generation or what uses it, but instead try to optimise the network.
Yes, there is misinformation out there. Just like your claim that FCEV’s are more efficient - they’re more efficient at the end stage of converting a fuel into motion, but the overall process including hydrogen production and getting the fuel cell ready to use is far, far less efficient. It’s more efficient to pull oil out the ground, process it and then run a car on it than it is to run an FCEV. Spinning up renewable generation to charge a battery requires more energy than using current oil infrastructure, but is definitely more efficient than FCEV, even when accounting for the production and lifecycle of a current battery. Oil only wins on efficiency right now because the infrastructure is already there, and because the fuel was made over millions of years prior.
Yes, it would be cheaper to adapt current gas stations to hydrogen. My point was referring to the time before gas stations were built - back then, it would have been cheaper to stick with horses than to move to widespread adoption of the new technology. Models for adapting current gas stations to hydrogen also typically ignore the cost of green hydrogen, and instead assume it will continue to be as cheap as it is now while it is produced by fossil fuel processes.
Hydrogen is cheap right now because it is a byproduct of dirty fuel production. If we stop using dirty fuel, we will stop having cheap hydrogen, and then all the people who invested in hydrogen because it was cheap will be left holding the bag. This is why I referred to it as “snake oil” in my initial comment.
I realised you were on kbin, hence my edits :o) I did also contradict myself, but clarified my objection to hydrogen consumption. The edits probably didn’t make it through to kbin that quickly, but they seem to be there now.
Excess green energy will likely flood the system. We will have an overabundance of all types of green energy, including hydrogen, in the long-run.
That’s wild speculation, there. We need to focus on the big problem right now, not the long-run. Right now, we need to get off fossil fuels as quickly as possible - trying to ease the transition with similar technologies (particularly ones focused on a byproduct of and reliant on current technology) will only slow things down by furthering demand for the existing infrastructure.
Thank you for the link, however pv-mag is a source I am very skeptical of. They’re very focused on the growth of their industry, and generally give a marketeer’s approach to things rather than an objective technical view. Hell, the first source link in that article is supposed to be about the Jülich Institute for Energy and Climate Research, but instead links to another one of their own articles that has little if anything to due with the institute or the topic of your article. pv-mag spew a lot of hyperbole, in my experience.
The source paper isn’t so bad, though, and has been widely cited. I remain skeptical about the commercial viability of it (in particular, they seem to give no consideration to the risk of explosion when filling a cavern with hydrogen), but it still sounds like a cool technology.
The claims of most commercial industries should not be trusted. I prefer academic sources, or at least those that are more energy agnostic.
I’m sure people said the same about gas stations.
I disagree with the latter part of that. I’m sure LH₂ will be tried, and it might temporarily prove effective under current conditions (with cheap, untaxed black and brown hydrogen) but as soon as you start trying to fulfill that with green hydrogen it just won’t be efficient enough.
Who knows though. Hydrogen right now is mainly a byproduct, so maybe there is some scope for that excess cheap hydrogen to be used in the short to medium term.
That is exactly what we should be aiming for. It might be slightly less commercially palatable for renewable generation businesses to be running at curtailment, but what we need right now is to build a large excess of renewable generation. The wind is always blowing somewhere, and (during the day, when most power is used) the sun still shines through the clouds.
Extrapolating from the latest UK National Grid’s Future Energy Scenarios report[2], we need to focus on building an excess of renewable generation as quickly as possible to get off fossil fuels as quickly as possible. Once we have the excess, we can pad out our generation portfolio with nuclear. Then, when the nuclear is ready to start generating, there is every likelihood that demand will have grown to the point that our excess renewable generation will have become the current requirement.
The report[2:1] does include significant use of hydrogen, but that is focused on heating and high energy applications. Transportation is a ridiculously large sector that does not benefit from the inefficiencies of hydrogen.
That’s a new thing to me, I’ll have to read up on that. I’d appreciate any sources you could offer.
My blind guess is that it is similar to elevated water storage in feasibility, though. In particular, investors might not be interested in developing the technology.
I’m all for green hydrogen production. The issue I take is with the reckless expansion of hydrogen consumption. More specifically, I feel that many people who work with hydrogen are too keen to expand the consumption market, because doing so benefits their industry commercially.
Edit: Damn, just saw you’re on kbin, which doesn’t have the citation function. If you click the 3 dots and select “copy url to fediverse” you can see what I see, or alternatively click here.
Edit2: I just realised that we’re commenting on an article about hydrogen heating, and that coincides with my main source saying that hydrogen heating should be developed. Maybe I should give the article and its heating technology more leeway. Nonetheless, I remain firm that hydrogen in transportation is not really a viable solution, all things considered.
Dammit, for a moment there I thought you’d done some funky new markdown code to write “LH₂”. But I bet you didn’t know about the citation function that lemmy has - which apparently even works out of order (check the comment source). ↩︎
UK National Grid’s 2023 Future Energy Scenarios report: https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/283101/download (pdf) The graphs are very pretty, NGESO make exceptionally good documentation. ↩︎ ↩︎
A lot of those “agnostic” sources are secretly working for the BEV companies. There’s a lot of misinformation out there. Anyways, given that a fuel cell is vastly more efficient than a conventional ICE, there shouldn’t be an issue on efficiency. FCEVs are more than good enough. Anyone bringing this issue up as a problem is either confused or has an agenda. After all, FCEVs are also EVs.
Gas stations are much cheaper than battery swapping. In fact, that is the main argument in favor of FCEVs. Replacing existing gas stations with hydrogen stations is a much cheaper solution than putting up millions of charging stations, battery swapping stations, DC fast charging stations, etc.
I’m on Kbin FYI. It mostly works for my needs.
Excess green energy will likely flood the system. We will have an overabundance of all types of green energy, including hydrogen, in the long-run.
Critics of hydrogen are basically contradicting themselves. If you admit the need for energy storage in the form of hydrogen, you are also admitting the existence of very cheap hydrogen. That will be available for a variety of tasks. It will become the go-to solution for anything that needs a chemical fuel. If it is cheap enough for heating or steel production, it will be cheap enough for transportation solutions too.
Yes, you should read up on salt cavern storage: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-salt-caverns/
The kind of agnostic sources I was referring to are like the one I provided - system operators, who don’t really care what provides the generation or what uses it, but instead try to optimise the network.
Yes, there is misinformation out there. Just like your claim that FCEV’s are more efficient - they’re more efficient at the end stage of converting a fuel into motion, but the overall process including hydrogen production and getting the fuel cell ready to use is far, far less efficient. It’s more efficient to pull oil out the ground, process it and then run a car on it than it is to run an FCEV. Spinning up renewable generation to charge a battery requires more energy than using current oil infrastructure, but is definitely more efficient than FCEV, even when accounting for the production and lifecycle of a current battery. Oil only wins on efficiency right now because the infrastructure is already there, and because the fuel was made over millions of years prior.
Yes, it would be cheaper to adapt current gas stations to hydrogen. My point was referring to the time before gas stations were built - back then, it would have been cheaper to stick with horses than to move to widespread adoption of the new technology. Models for adapting current gas stations to hydrogen also typically ignore the cost of green hydrogen, and instead assume it will continue to be as cheap as it is now while it is produced by fossil fuel processes.
Hydrogen is cheap right now because it is a byproduct of dirty fuel production. If we stop using dirty fuel, we will stop having cheap hydrogen, and then all the people who invested in hydrogen because it was cheap will be left holding the bag. This is why I referred to it as “snake oil” in my initial comment.
I realised you were on kbin, hence my edits :o) I did also contradict myself, but clarified my objection to hydrogen consumption. The edits probably didn’t make it through to kbin that quickly, but they seem to be there now.
That’s wild speculation, there. We need to focus on the big problem right now, not the long-run. Right now, we need to get off fossil fuels as quickly as possible - trying to ease the transition with similar technologies (particularly ones focused on a byproduct of and reliant on current technology) will only slow things down by furthering demand for the existing infrastructure.
Thank you for the link, however pv-mag is a source I am very skeptical of. They’re very focused on the growth of their industry, and generally give a marketeer’s approach to things rather than an objective technical view. Hell, the first source link in that article is supposed to be about the Jülich Institute for Energy and Climate Research, but instead links to another one of their own articles that has little if anything to due with the institute or the topic of your article. pv-mag spew a lot of hyperbole, in my experience.
The source paper isn’t so bad, though, and has been widely cited. I remain skeptical about the commercial viability of it (in particular, they seem to give no consideration to the risk of explosion when filling a cavern with hydrogen), but it still sounds like a cool technology.