On the contrary, that’s why it’s perfect. There is so much evidence in so many different context that positive reinforcement yields better results than negative.
This is congruent with your donkey example.
I thought you dangled the carrot from a stick
I’ve seen both “carrot on a stick” meaning to offer something the other party wants to get them to do what you want with no negatives/punishment, but there is also “carrot and a stick” which means employing both positive and negative reinforcement.
You don’t hit the donkey with the stick silly! 😂🤣
You sit on the donkey and use the stick like a fishing pole. Dangle the carrot in front of the donkey’s face with a string, and the donkey will walk in whichever direction you guide it.
While this is definitely a thing from cartoons, the carrot/stick thing is absolutely referring to hitting the donkey. The whole point is punishment vs reward…
Well, seeing as how I grew up on a horse ranch, I can totally confirm the ‘cartoon logic’ you speak of is absolutely real, and is used to help train at least some donkeys and horses.
It’s more like teasing them to go after something they can never have.
Yeah, again, I’m not saying that’s not a thing, man. Just that’s not what carrot vs stick metaphor is about
Can you provide me a couple older references to this? Preferably before the year 2000, or at least before the AI and enshittification era?
It’s pretty intuitive from the saying. It’s the carrot OR the stick, not the carrot ON the stick. The carrot is the reward for doing the thing, the stick is the punishment for not doing it. Just google it.
Read OP’s post again, it literally says “carrot and stick”.
I’m not about to nitpick or argue my life experience with someone that’s probably never rode a horse or donkey in their life, doesn’t know how to read, and goes to Google for all their information.
Dude no one’s arguing about your life experience, it’s just irrelevant. The carrot and stick metaphor isn’t even about donkeys or horses.
Here’s a wiki link for you
I asked for before the enshittification era.
I’m not about to trust a controversial article that could have been manipulated by almost anyone these days.
Dude the Wikipedia article proves that both metaphors are correct
You can just go look at the sources of the article man.
Pro tip: you can also ride a pig that way.
In Minecraft
Don’t talk about your mom like that.
its an archaism. a modern understanding of animal behavior and ethics have both pushed that training modality out, and probably the more successful animal trainers of yore never really relied on it, but people absolutely used to beat the shit out of animals. perhaps not often, and perhaps not horribly, but animal cruelty was certainly common enough to enter the lexicon. see “carriage whip”. see “spurs”. see “bearing rein”. see “branding iron”. etc etc. hell theres even the phrase “spare the rod, spoil the child”.
and this is not the worst place a study of the history of language will take you. remember that european and white north american cultures both (among others) unabashedly practiced chattel slavery for centuries, if not millennia for older cultures.
In addition to all of the other answers, I’ve heard the phrase “carrot or the stick” significantly more than “and”
I think it’s more like a threat
This is a little naiive imho. I get what you’re saying, but the reality that has been proven time and time again is that if you’re willing to stoop low enough and cause enough suffering, it is possible to break most animals’ spirits.
A donkey absolutely would…
Humans are different, and a positive reward is more effective. Although not a sustained positive reward intermittent random positive rewards are most effective with people.
Like how someone won’t enjoy work even tho they get a steady paycheck, but a slot machine is considered entertainment. Or a $10 raise per paycheck vs a $100 bonus, the bonus is less money but it feels special.
We’re wired to keep trying for the big endorphin hit of winning, not the delayed payoff of a paycheck a week or two later.
No you’re not hitting it with enough force or frequency with the stick if it’s not working. You have to entirely break an animal’s spirit and then you can encourage it. Circuses have been doing this for centuries
