Thank you so much for taking the time to collect some links for me, those gave me a lot more to think about! I had missed the history section on the HRW Wikipedia page talking about its founding to watch the USSR specifically and slowly expanding to include more regions and whatnot. I’ll have to take a look at that page of their criticisms more closely, thank you for the link! The criticisms section in the HRC page was much more limited, I didn’t realize there was a dedicated page
Thats super interesting regarding them acknowledging the tianamen square massacre, if that’s true that totally changes my perception of that part of China’s history. If nothing else, I didn’t realize how close in time that was to the death of Mao, being about 10-15 years after he died, and that the deaths didn’t happen in the square. I think the argument for it being a significantly lower death toll are interesting and fairly compelling, I’ll keep that idea in the back of my mind as I learn more in the future, thank you for the sources! Do you happen to know any reputable, relatively impartial sources where I can learn more about how the event is talked about in China, and the governments acknowledgement of it? If not that’s okay but I wanted to ask :)
Wait, so does tankie not even really include maoists? I thought it was maoists marxists, stallinists (is that a thing?) Etc.
Thank you for taking the time to engage with me, I think these kinds of conversations are exhausting but I really appreciate them. O think it’s really important to be able to talk to people who’s perspective you don’t share and learn why they see things differently.
As for “Maoists,” Mao himself was a Marxist-Leninist. His contributions to Marxism-Leninism are called “Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought.” Maoists are a subsection of Marxists after Mao that believe certain individual characteristics of the Chinese Revolution are universal, rather than individual, ie they see Maoism as a higher stage of Marxism surpassing Marxism-Leninism. They get called “tankies” just as much, even if they reject most Socialist states as “valid.” “Stalinism” isn’t really a thing either, Stalin took the writings of Marx and Lenin and synthesized it into Marxism-Leninism, but didn’t really create any new theory. Those calling people “Stalinists” are generally trying to fearmonger around the name of Stalin, even if Marx, Engels, and Lenin are the broad majority of Marxism-Leninism, and Stalin more the first person after Lenin to really collect how Marxism and Leninism had changed and developed over time.
Thank you so much for taking the time to collect some links for me, those gave me a lot more to think about! I had missed the history section on the HRW Wikipedia page talking about its founding to watch the USSR specifically and slowly expanding to include more regions and whatnot. I’ll have to take a look at that page of their criticisms more closely, thank you for the link! The criticisms section in the HRC page was much more limited, I didn’t realize there was a dedicated page
Thats super interesting regarding them acknowledging the tianamen square massacre, if that’s true that totally changes my perception of that part of China’s history. If nothing else, I didn’t realize how close in time that was to the death of Mao, being about 10-15 years after he died, and that the deaths didn’t happen in the square. I think the argument for it being a significantly lower death toll are interesting and fairly compelling, I’ll keep that idea in the back of my mind as I learn more in the future, thank you for the sources! Do you happen to know any reputable, relatively impartial sources where I can learn more about how the event is talked about in China, and the governments acknowledgement of it? If not that’s okay but I wanted to ask :)
Wait, so does tankie not even really include maoists? I thought it was maoists marxists, stallinists (is that a thing?) Etc.
Thank you for taking the time to engage with me, I think these kinds of conversations are exhausting but I really appreciate them. O think it’s really important to be able to talk to people who’s perspective you don’t share and learn why they see things differently.
No problem!
Regarding “unbiased sources,” you’ll find that there’s really no such thing in general. Bias is like perspective, everyone has it. Here’s a ProleWiki page section going over state media directly speaking about the “June 4th Incident” as it’s called in China. ProleWiki is a Marxist-Leninist Wikipedia, so definitely biased, but also has sources backing it up for most claims.
As for “Maoists,” Mao himself was a Marxist-Leninist. His contributions to Marxism-Leninism are called “Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought.” Maoists are a subsection of Marxists after Mao that believe certain individual characteristics of the Chinese Revolution are universal, rather than individual, ie they see Maoism as a higher stage of Marxism surpassing Marxism-Leninism. They get called “tankies” just as much, even if they reject most Socialist states as “valid.” “Stalinism” isn’t really a thing either, Stalin took the writings of Marx and Lenin and synthesized it into Marxism-Leninism, but didn’t really create any new theory. Those calling people “Stalinists” are generally trying to fearmonger around the name of Stalin, even if Marx, Engels, and Lenin are the broad majority of Marxism-Leninism, and Stalin more the first person after Lenin to really collect how Marxism and Leninism had changed and developed over time.