I don’t understand how that is the reply you went with. Why would a product having torture in the name be meaning it’s the torture of the person who buys it? According to exactly what you said above, it should describe the product, which the person you replied to followed.
Coconut milk has been called milk since forever and nobody’s surprised a cow wasn’t involved.
This only became an issue when alternatives to meat and dairy got popular because these restrictions on naming has nothing to do with clarity and everything to do with mega farm owners wanting to crush the opposition to their racket. They don’t want to replace “oat milk” with “oat enhanced water” because they care about you, they do it because they hate competition.
That’s exactly the ridiculous premise of this discussion, and I’m tired of everyone pretending it isn’t. Everyone knows what oat milk is and what it isn’t, no-one’s getting confused. In most supermarkets, the plant-based stuff is on a separate shelf for clarity (I assume).
Someone else said it on here, but if you’re confusing plant-based stuff for meat-based stuff, you got bigger problems to worry about.
agreed - if this does pass I can’t wait to stop seeing “burger” as a term used to mean anything but the minced flesh patty and all uses of “burger” for the whole sandwich to be made illegal as bread, lettuce, tomato, etc obv aren’t made of animals
also I hope somebody finally starts enforcing this so we stop getting confusing product names like “peanut butter” - you’re telling me a peanut was milked and then churned? mm I don’t think so…
I assume you’re being sarcastic, but when I was growing up in Australia we didn’t call it peanut butter, it was peanut paste. Because the dairy lobby didn’t want the confusion.
Consumers readily know what a ‘burger’ is, and will readily understand that it is meat-free if ‘plant-based’ is used as a prefix to it. Plant-based burgers are intended to be substitute products for meat-based burgers, so disallowing the use of the word ‘burger’ will inevitably confuse consumers as to the nature of such products. Clear distinction is possible without directly favoring the meat lobby.
And culinary as well. And not without reason : fish has very different qualities from beef or chicken. Even leaving out the taste, you would never mistake fish for chicken.
And seeing that a mix of cucumbers and tomatoes are rarely seen as a fruit salad, or that people have a hard time calling a banana a berry, I think culinary definitions are important to us.
You were asking for definitions, and I responded by pointing out that they definitely exist. The fact that you or I don’t personally come from a background which values those definitions doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that other people don’t use them.
To anyone dowvoting my remark, you’re more than welcome to tell me why/what you’re downvoting. At least, if by downvoting you wanted help me understand why there may be an issue with my comment. If not, don’t change a thing ;)
How the fuck do you look at a meat substitute product, which all scream “I AM NOT MEAT, I AM SUBSTITUTE” from the packaging to the naming conventions like “Like-Chicken”, and think this is meat. Please, if you do this, don’t do the shopping for your household. Depending on the language, you might end up with cleaning products in your breakfast cereal.
The tone of your message would normally be enough for me to realize the best answer should be to ignore it for what it is: (here, add some not polite word of your choice). But at the same time you’re the only one of those angry people who have made the effort to try to express something vaguely resembling an opinion over my poor comment. So, even though your effort mostly boils down to a few dismissive remarks toward my little person, I want to encourage such an impressive attempt at communicating. Allow me to answer your remarks while doing my best to ignore your tone and sarcasm.
Okay, here I go: Heavily misleading marketing.
How the fuck do you look at a meat substitute product, which all scream “I AM NOT MEAT, I AM SUBSTITUTE” from the packaging to the naming conventions like “Like-Chicken”, and think this is meat.
I did a quick image search (using Qwant search engine) for vegan packaging and, without much surprise, I could not find much ‘screaming’ “I AM NOT MEAT; I AM SUBSTITUTE”.
On the other hand, while searching for one such package I could find a lot of packages (I dare not say all of them, as I only checked a few) using very similar ALLCAPS to yours, stating ‘STEAK’ in big bold face while, albeit in much smaller font and nowhere near that ‘STEAK’ part, stating ‘plant-based’ or ‘substitute’ which, no matter how dumb you seem to have realized I am, is not the same as ‘NOT FUCKING MEAT BASED, YOU ABSOLUTE MORON OF A CUSTOMER’ (did I get your amused tone right?)
Please, if you do this, don’t do the shopping for your household. Depending on the language, you might end up with cleaning products in your breakfast cereal.
For the rest of your message it’s hard to answer anything while ignoring the part that is desperately trying to be insulting since there is not much beside that failed attempt. But since I promised to do my best, here I go:
Since you seem to worry about our eating habits, be informed that I don’t eat cereal for breakfast, nor does my spouse. Cereals may not be the healthiest choice if you ask me (too much sugar).
As far as shopping for our household, once again I thank you so much for your touching concern, but you should know I seldom purchase any prepackaged and/or industrially-processed food and products as I’m much more into buying fresh and locally produced stuff which, very much unlike many of those so-called ‘vegan’ products we’re discussing, often happen to not be absurdly over-packaged which is good for the planet too, you know. A bit like eating less meat is good.
Finally, be assured it doesn’t matter much how desperately stupid I’m (I’m impressed how quickly you have realized what an absolute dumbfuck moron I am, it almost feels like if we were somehow related. Almost) as I do most my groceries at nearby small local shops, never in those dehumanized supermakets or malls, places where the owner knows most their costumers by heart, stupid-me included. So I feel safe knowing that they would never allow brainless-me to pick cleaning products instead of milk to pour into those cereals I don’t even eat at breakfast.
If that also worries you, be assured I don’t drink bleach to fight viruses. I’m not that stupid, thank you. I use an IV instead. It’s much quicker.
Since it’s 10.30 PM in my corner of the world, allow me to thank you one last time for your kind comment and to wish you the absolute best evening such an amiable answer as yours deserves. It was a pleasure.
Why would I advertise that I made the breading animal free, when the patty is made of meat?
To cash in on the plant-based trend and make $$$ for the same product you used to sell for $$. Beyond isn’t, because veggie is their brand, but I have to read ingredient labels because I can’t do legumes, so I’ve seen the weirdest shit before with off-brand stuff.
even if this were to be confusing, slap a “vegan” label on the front, and now you’re good.
Agreed. Also note that they’re calling it “patties”, so the quibble about whether or not they’re “burgers” is irrelevant. It’s just an example of how things can currently be confusing if you don’t know your brands.
I didn’t actually downvote, but I do object to your characterisation of this as misleading. People aren’t labelling their products with the intent that the people buying it believe they’re eating meat.
Those labels are designed to communicate what sort of thing you can do with it. If you label something “burger”, for example, everyone will understand at a glance what they’re looking at, and that you might like to put it between two buns with some lettuce. It will also catch the attention of people who are looking to make burgers, but might not have considered non-meat options.
Also, common usage of words like “burger” aren’t limited to anything specific. People talk about “chicken burger” or “turkey burger” all the time, for example, and nobody accuses them of trying to trick people into eating chicken. Why not a “lentil burger” as well?
I didn’t actually downvote, but I do object to your characterisation of this as misleading. People aren’t labelling their products with the intent that the people buying it believe they’re eating meat.
I understand that. But they still market those products as a way to convince people they will get a very similar experience to eating an actual steak, or a burger. If not, why would they call it a steak or a burger? It’s like telling lies on my resume to get a job interview and then, once they have interviewed me and realized my resume was a joke, to act surprised I did not get the job.
Also, common usage of words like “burger” aren’t limited to anything specific.
Did I say otherwise?
People talk about “chicken burger” or “turkey burger” all the time, for example, and nobody accuses them of trying to trick people into eating chicken. Why not a “lentil burger” as well?
If you’re asking me I would say because one of them contains no meat and because all the others clearly state what kind of meat they’re made of? I don’t mind vegan food trying to become the norm. I just mind it willing to lie to manage that, trying to persuade people it’s ‘just like eating meat’ when it is not.
Disclaimer: I’m well into my 50s, I live in France and I like great food (and cheese ;), meaning I have no shame in admitting I have not set a foot in any fast-food for years, and rarely for most of my life and never by choice, also the burgers we occasionally enjoy eating my spouse and I are either the ones we make ourselves, using fresh food, or the ones that are also handmade at a traditional restaurant. So, clearly, I don’t have much experience regarding what’s being sold under the name ‘burger’ nowadays, nor what younger people may expect to get in exchange for their money. But I do know what most people my age (at least the ones I’ve had the opportunity to eat with) expect to get when they order a ‘burger’, or even a steak.
Sure, a burger can be vegan but it should not try to pretend it is the same culinary experience as eating a burger prepared with meat, be it a steak, chicken or whatever type of actual meat.
The few ‘vegan steak/burgers’ we purchased, well, they were an interesting experiment but they were not something I would suggest to anyone willing to taste their first ‘steak’ or burger. I’m not saying they’re bad (I was not impressed) just that their marketing insists a little too much on the product being something it is not. Hence the ‘misleading’ part in my previous comment.
Even if we still eat a little meat (twice a week) vegetables are central in our eating habits. I think both my spouse and I would be a lot more receptive to their efforts if those new products pushed forward the fact that they are vegetables more than them trying to pretend they look or taste like the steak or burger they’re not.
Edit: I forgot to thank you for replying and explaining, much appreciated :)
I’m afraid you may be right. And if that’s how they envision convincing anyone to change their their mind, well, good luck with that. But I was still hoping maybe there was something else in my comment, something meaningful I mean, that was worth criticizing and discussing.
If there is nothing but a few random strangers on the Internet being displeased by a comment, well, it’s not like they will stop being triggered anytime soon, and I certainly don’t want to waste my energy worrying about them being too lazy to tell me what they disagree with, and why. So, like I said, they’re more than welcome to continue hitting the downvote button ;)
Good, product names should not be misleading.
Edit: I wonder what idiots think product names SHOULD be misleading.
I agree. Burgers should be called tortured ground-up cows.
Who is torturing you?
I don’t understand how that is the reply you went with. Why would a product having torture in the name be meaning it’s the torture of the person who buys it? According to exactly what you said above, it should describe the product, which the person you replied to followed.
I know.
reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it?
So how should a veggie burger be called?
Vegetable patty
“heavily processed plant pulp” will do.
So then a ton of animal meat products needs to have their names changed too “heavily processed animal pulp” too? Because that’s what they are.
Nope. They are delicious mince meat burgers. Which reminds me, it is Fri, time to have one.
What is wrong with you? Putting so much effort into defending hurting other animals.
Imagine being such a pathetic person.
Like “concentration camp slaughter” for animal meat?
Like delicious steak, medium rare please.
“Disk of disappointment”?
I love the even spread on the up/down votes to this comment.
Coconut milk has been called milk since forever and nobody’s surprised a cow wasn’t involved.
This only became an issue when alternatives to meat and dairy got popular because these restrictions on naming has nothing to do with clarity and everything to do with mega farm owners wanting to crush the opposition to their racket. They don’t want to replace “oat milk” with “oat enhanced water” because they care about you, they do it because they hate competition.
That’s exactly the ridiculous premise of this discussion, and I’m tired of everyone pretending it isn’t. Everyone knows what oat milk is and what it isn’t, no-one’s getting confused. In most supermarkets, the plant-based stuff is on a separate shelf for clarity (I assume).
Someone else said it on here, but if you’re confusing plant-based stuff for meat-based stuff, you got bigger problems to worry about.
if you are “mislead” by a veggie burger being called a veggie burger then you have bigger problems
agreed - if this does pass I can’t wait to stop seeing “burger” as a term used to mean anything but the minced flesh patty and all uses of “burger” for the whole sandwich to be made illegal as bread, lettuce, tomato, etc obv aren’t made of animals
also I hope somebody finally starts enforcing this so we stop getting confusing product names like “peanut butter” - you’re telling me a peanut was milked and then churned? mm I don’t think so…
I assume you’re being sarcastic, but when I was growing up in Australia we didn’t call it peanut butter, it was peanut paste. Because the dairy lobby didn’t want the confusion.
Consumers readily know what a ‘burger’ is, and will readily understand that it is meat-free if ‘plant-based’ is used as a prefix to it. Plant-based burgers are intended to be substitute products for meat-based burgers, so disallowing the use of the word ‘burger’ will inevitably confuse consumers as to the nature of such products. Clear distinction is possible without directly favoring the meat lobby.
‘plant-based butter’.
*heavily processed plant pulp
Let’s rename burgers to heavily processed animal carcasses then :)
According to some definitions fish is not meat. What should a fish burger be called then?
Living animals are made of meat.
Edit: I got downvoted, but I have filleted a fish before, they are full of organs and blood. Your wacky religions can call it what you want I guess?
According to what definitions?
Various holy books, I believe. See also pescetarianism, which stems from the same place
And culinary as well. And not without reason : fish has very different qualities from beef or chicken. Even leaving out the taste, you would never mistake fish for chicken.
And seeing that a mix of cucumbers and tomatoes are rarely seen as a fruit salad, or that people have a hard time calling a banana a berry, I think culinary definitions are important to us.
And why would anyone with a brain care?
Why would anyone with a brain be confused or “misled” by words like “veggie burger” or “oat milk”?
You were asking for definitions, and I responded by pointing out that they definitely exist. The fact that you or I don’t personally come from a background which values those definitions doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that other people don’t use them.
And again, why would anyone with a brain care?
100%. Misleading marketing is not the right way to encourage people to change their habits. It should not be.
Do hotdogs and fish fingers confuse you, or are you perfectly capable of understanding hotdogs aren’t made of dog and fish don’t have fingers?
They are too busy hunting flying buffalo for their wings.
To anyone dowvoting my remark, you’re more than welcome to tell me why/what you’re downvoting. At least, if by downvoting you wanted help me understand why there may be an issue with my comment. If not, don’t change a thing ;)
Okay, here I go: Heavily misleading marketing.
How the fuck do you look at a meat substitute product, which all scream “I AM NOT MEAT, I AM SUBSTITUTE” from the packaging to the naming conventions like “Like-Chicken”, and think this is meat. Please, if you do this, don’t do the shopping for your household. Depending on the language, you might end up with cleaning products in your breakfast cereal.
The tone of your message would normally be enough for me to realize the best answer should be to ignore it for what it is: (here, add some not polite word of your choice). But at the same time you’re the only one of those angry people who have made the effort to try to express something vaguely resembling an opinion over my poor comment. So, even though your effort mostly boils down to a few dismissive remarks toward my little person, I want to encourage such an impressive attempt at communicating. Allow me to answer your remarks while doing my best to ignore your tone and sarcasm.
I did a quick image search (using Qwant search engine) for vegan packaging and, without much surprise, I could not find much ‘screaming’ “I AM NOT MEAT; I AM SUBSTITUTE”.
On the other hand, while searching for one such package I could find a lot of packages (I dare not say all of them, as I only checked a few) using very similar ALLCAPS to yours, stating ‘STEAK’ in big bold face while, albeit in much smaller font and nowhere near that ‘STEAK’ part, stating ‘plant-based’ or ‘substitute’ which, no matter how dumb you seem to have realized I am, is not the same as ‘NOT FUCKING MEAT BASED, YOU ABSOLUTE MORON OF A CUSTOMER’ (did I get your amused tone right?)
For the rest of your message it’s hard to answer anything while ignoring the part that is desperately trying to be insulting since there is not much beside that failed attempt. But since I promised to do my best, here I go:
Since it’s 10.30 PM in my corner of the world, allow me to thank you one last time for your kind comment and to wish you the absolute best evening such an amiable answer as yours deserves. It was a pleasure.
edit: typos
Here’s an example of packaging being confusing.
It is not clear without reading the ingredient label if the it’s plant-based-chicken or plant-based-breading on the chicken-meat patty.
2 important things:
This isn’t confusing unless you want it to be.
To cash in on the plant-based trend and make $$$ for the same product you used to sell for $$. Beyond isn’t, because veggie is their brand, but I have to read ingredient labels because I can’t do legumes, so I’ve seen the weirdest shit before with off-brand stuff.
Agreed. Also note that they’re calling it “patties”, so the quibble about whether or not they’re “burgers” is irrelevant. It’s just an example of how things can currently be confusing if you don’t know your brands.
I didn’t actually downvote, but I do object to your characterisation of this as misleading. People aren’t labelling their products with the intent that the people buying it believe they’re eating meat.
Those labels are designed to communicate what sort of thing you can do with it. If you label something “burger”, for example, everyone will understand at a glance what they’re looking at, and that you might like to put it between two buns with some lettuce. It will also catch the attention of people who are looking to make burgers, but might not have considered non-meat options.
Also, common usage of words like “burger” aren’t limited to anything specific. People talk about “chicken burger” or “turkey burger” all the time, for example, and nobody accuses them of trying to trick people into eating chicken. Why not a “lentil burger” as well?
I understand that. But they still market those products as a way to convince people they will get a very similar experience to eating an actual steak, or a burger. If not, why would they call it a steak or a burger? It’s like telling lies on my resume to get a job interview and then, once they have interviewed me and realized my resume was a joke, to act surprised I did not get the job.
Did I say otherwise?
If you’re asking me I would say because one of them contains no meat and because all the others clearly state what kind of meat they’re made of? I don’t mind vegan food trying to become the norm. I just mind it willing to lie to manage that, trying to persuade people it’s ‘just like eating meat’ when it is not.
Disclaimer: I’m well into my 50s, I live in France and I like great food (and cheese ;), meaning I have no shame in admitting I have not set a foot in any fast-food for years, and rarely for most of my life and never by choice, also the burgers we occasionally enjoy eating my spouse and I are either the ones we make ourselves, using fresh food, or the ones that are also handmade at a traditional restaurant. So, clearly, I don’t have much experience regarding what’s being sold under the name ‘burger’ nowadays, nor what younger people may expect to get in exchange for their money. But I do know what most people my age (at least the ones I’ve had the opportunity to eat with) expect to get when they order a ‘burger’, or even a steak.
Sure, a burger can be vegan but it should not try to pretend it is the same culinary experience as eating a burger prepared with meat, be it a steak, chicken or whatever type of actual meat.
The few ‘vegan steak/burgers’ we purchased, well, they were an interesting experiment but they were not something I would suggest to anyone willing to taste their first ‘steak’ or burger. I’m not saying they’re bad (I was not impressed) just that their marketing insists a little too much on the product being something it is not. Hence the ‘misleading’ part in my previous comment.
Even if we still eat a little meat (twice a week) vegetables are central in our eating habits. I think both my spouse and I would be a lot more receptive to their efforts if those new products pushed forward the fact that they are vegetables more than them trying to pretend they look or taste like the steak or burger they’re not.
Edit: I forgot to thank you for replying and explaining, much appreciated :)
It’s just being brigaded by weird vegans it seems
I’m afraid you may be right. And if that’s how they envision convincing anyone to change their their mind, well, good luck with that. But I was still hoping maybe there was something else in my comment, something meaningful I mean, that was worth criticizing and discussing.
If there is nothing but a few random strangers on the Internet being displeased by a comment, well, it’s not like they will stop being triggered anytime soon, and I certainly don’t want to waste my energy worrying about them being too lazy to tell me what they disagree with, and why. So, like I said, they’re more than welcome to continue hitting the downvote button ;)