I mean it’s how our brains are wired after roughly 10,000 years of oral storytelling tradition, and you can draw a direct line of storytelling methodology in most cultures back about 4000 years. These methods are what constructed the odyssey, the Iliad, the aeneid, the plays of Aesceleus, Euripedes, Sophecles, Aristophanes… all the way up to modern comic books, superhero movies and telenovellas.
First of all, you’re telling me aesceleus euripedes et al were talking about “winners” and “losers” as the fundamental dynamic of literature?
And second of all, that’s all one western tradition you’re talking about. And i was raised on it too read translations of the classics and all that. But now that im older, ive since realized that the legacy of the ancient Greeks through the Renaissance to the modern West is simply not innate to humans, it’s just the way one specific culture evolved.
One big realization for me was that all the characters in the Illiad are colossal pieces of shit slave owners who are more concerned with first their ego and second the monetary value of their enslaved humans kept as chattel. (With the possible exception of Hector, who seemed to really put others above himself and was doing what he thought was necessary to save his people.). And yet walk into any university in the west and they indoctrinate freshmen with the idea that these were honorable men we should hold up as role models.
First of all, you’re telling me aesceleus euripedes et al were talking about “winners” and “losers” as the fundamental dynamic of literature?
No, I’m saying that when we as modern readers discuss dramaturgical theory, we recognize that a key element of the path to a resolution of a narrative necessitates conflict in the vast majority of narrative theory. Can you name a narrative without conflict?
now that im older, ive since realized that the legacy of the ancient Greeks through the Renaissance to the modern West is simply not innate to humans, it’s just the way one specific culture evolved.
Which cultures are you referring to that doesn’t have stories that follow a narrative path, or have narrative paths without tension and resolution?
I’m afraid I can’t see why Achilles being a bad person disproves that narratives have a structure and across cultural and language barriers those structures hold for at least a few thousand years.
You’re right. I guess I don’t know a better shorthand way to say, “At the denouement - regardless of whether it is a single line, joke, beat, scene or whole narrative - rising tension and falling tension is resolved with an outcome for two characters in which the outcome is given meaning by that resolution having different values which affect the situation those characters reside in”
edit2: with the exception of pure word play, exposition, etc…
Fair enough, i guess i would add that the dualistic nature of western literature is a unique socially constructed cultural choice, and not anything actually innate to how human beings think. In other words, there are several human literary legacies independent of it.
I mean it’s how our brains are wired after roughly 10,000 years of oral storytelling tradition, and you can draw a direct line of storytelling methodology in most cultures back about 4000 years. These methods are what constructed the odyssey, the Iliad, the aeneid, the plays of Aesceleus, Euripedes, Sophecles, Aristophanes… all the way up to modern comic books, superhero movies and telenovellas.
First of all, you’re telling me aesceleus euripedes et al were talking about “winners” and “losers” as the fundamental dynamic of literature?
And second of all, that’s all one western tradition you’re talking about. And i was raised on it too read translations of the classics and all that. But now that im older, ive since realized that the legacy of the ancient Greeks through the Renaissance to the modern West is simply not innate to humans, it’s just the way one specific culture evolved.
One big realization for me was that all the characters in the Illiad are colossal pieces of shit slave owners who are more concerned with first their ego and second the monetary value of their enslaved humans kept as chattel. (With the possible exception of Hector, who seemed to really put others above himself and was doing what he thought was necessary to save his people.). And yet walk into any university in the west and they indoctrinate freshmen with the idea that these were honorable men we should hold up as role models.
No, I’m saying that when we as modern readers discuss dramaturgical theory, we recognize that a key element of the path to a resolution of a narrative necessitates conflict in the vast majority of narrative theory. Can you name a narrative without conflict?
Which cultures are you referring to that doesn’t have stories that follow a narrative path, or have narrative paths without tension and resolution?
I’m afraid I can’t see why Achilles being a bad person disproves that narratives have a structure and across cultural and language barriers those structures hold for at least a few thousand years.
No, you were saying it’s all about winners and losers and now you’re saying your argument is just that narratives have structure.
edit: oh I see where I said winner and loser.
You’re right. I guess I don’t know a better shorthand way to say, “At the denouement - regardless of whether it is a single line, joke, beat, scene or whole narrative - rising tension and falling tension is resolved with an outcome for two characters in which the outcome is given meaning by that resolution having different values which affect the situation those characters reside in”
edit2: with the exception of pure word play, exposition, etc…
Fair enough, i guess i would add that the dualistic nature of western literature is a unique socially constructed cultural choice, and not anything actually innate to how human beings think. In other words, there are several human literary legacies independent of it.
which ones are you thinking of?
Hindi and Chinese are the two biggest ones. Im not an expert but you probably have heard of the Dao and Bahgavad Gita