Good for him. I’ve never seen Jeremy Corbyn be anything other than decent and honest, and frank about his policies and why they are needed, even as he was treated terribly by the media. Hopefully he can be an effective voice in Parliament during this Labour government.
Certain parts of the media/political establishment certainly tried to paint him that way, but really he was only guilty of not being hawkish enough on Russia.
He’s arguing that the West should have been tougher on Putin sooner and the UK should have admitted more Ukrainian refugees. I don’t see any clear sign of Russian influence here.
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine. Support for joining NATO was always mixed in Ukraine anyway - Before the war, less than half of Ukrainians wanted it.
And who says the war will be endless? That’s another Russian talking-point intending to sow defeatism.
Russia’s full-scale armed attack on Ukraine, which is about to enter its third year with no end in sight, continues to cause serious and widespread human rights violations, destroying lives and livelihoods
and stated that over 30,000 civilians have already died. A diplomatic solution three years ago could have possibly prevented all that.
Whew, lots of half-truths and misinformation to unpack here, but I take it the gishgallop is the intent. Perhaps you should consider a ceasefire now because this argument will never end and you will slowly hemorrhage down-votes.
For starters, since you distinguish yourself from “people in the West,” I’m curious from where you reside? People from the West don’t normally say, “People in the west.”
NATO is primarily a defensive organization with a voluntary membership. Its bolstering is a direct reflection of the outside aggressive risks. In fact, prior to Putin’s invasion NATO was largely collecting dust. To be clear, Russia could just as easily reinstitute the Warsaw Pact – but the problem is nobody wants to join because there is no legitimate risk of NATO suddenly attacking a sovereign peaceful and stable nation. “nAtO EXpAnSioNism” is therefore utterly irrelevant and in fact, Russia is invoking a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Jn before pointing to fringe outlier incidents that are contextually much more complicated, or events where Russia could’ve vetoed but permitted on the UNSC).
As for far right neo-nazi groups, pro-tip: Azov doesn’t account for even 1% of the total UAF. Talk about pointing to outliers. But I’m sure Zelenskyy – who is Jewish and whose ancestors were in the Holocaust – is really neo-nazi… Just stop and think about it for a second :)
Let’s not forget that Putin has since backpedaled on the Budest Memorandum and like Hitler invading Poland, invaded a sovereign nation under the false pretenses of protecting ethnic groups. How awfully convenient.
Thus far you are drinking the Russia Vodka. I encourage you to stop being so gullibly duped.
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine.
Incorrect. What Putin actually stated was that so long as Ukraine didn’t join NATO, then he wouldn’t attack. Ukraine pledged to not join NATO, and yet Putin attacked them anyway. But you know, it sure is funny how all those nations under the NATO banner HAVEN’T been attacked by Russia. It’s almost like… That’s kind of the… Point of NATO? Golly!
Russia is using second-hand ammunitions from North Korea that are blowing up in the faces of Russian troops. Russia is seeking help from 2-bit nations like Iran, and sure, some help from China. But China’s economy is wholly dependent on its economic relations with USA, and so will not overextend.
Russia itself has an economy smaller than California. Aid will continue to Ukraine and Ukraine can easily out-pace Russia. After all, the smaller Soviet-Afghan War brought down a stronger USSR.
“No End in Sight” doesn’t mean endless war. People enter tunnels for which they cannot see the end; but that doesn’t mean it’s endless…
So I repeat what was dodged; What will Corbyn say and do when Ukraine commits to a ceasefire, loses 17% of its landmass, allows Russia to regroup its forces, and strikes again?
I took the time to explain a nuanced alternative viewpoint and support it with reliable sources. It’s pretty unfair to just dismiss it as a gish gallop or misinformation.
I don’t have time to sit down and fully respond to your points now, but hopefully I’ll have time later today.
I do appreciate sources, but you should know better by now that the majority of these points have been thoroughly debunked.
Instead of meandering on this wild goose-chase, why don’t you just respond with the two most relevant things:
(1) You said yourself, “Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but–”
NO BUTS. That’s IT. Russia is IN THE WRONG.
(2) How do you ensure a tyrant doesn’t regroup under a ceasefire and strike again after he gained a prize? In what realm do you believe dictators just suddenly stop without being smacked down? Did Hitler stop after he got Poland?
Sorry, but Russia has no legimitate grievances on anything that takes place inside of Ukraine.
Ditto on the NATO expansion and all that “argumentation” line you’re parroting: Russia and Ukraine are different soverign nations and none of them has any right to force the other to do anything, which does mean that it’s not up to Russia and never was the way Ukraine runs their government including which alliances they join, same as, for example, it was never up to the United States how Iraq was run (and why the American invasion of Iraq was just as immoral as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the “Saddam was a murderous dictator” is a totally bollocks excuse).
Up and until the point one of those nations actually harms the other, none of the has any right to do anything to the other and as it so happens, it was Russia that harmed Ukraine by invading it, so the only nation there with any legitimate grievances is Ukraine.
In fact since the Russian invasion and occupation of Crimea, Ukraine and Ukraine alone is the one nation of the two with legitimate grivances against the other.
Your whole “argument” is predicated on the notion that Russia as the large neighbouring nation has a say in the affairs of its smaller neighbouring nation Ukraine, which is just a nakedly imperialist view of the relations between states.
You won’t hear this often in mainstream media but NATO expansionism
Dont sovereign countries have the right to join alliances? Would you support the US invading Mexico if Mexico joins a chinese led alliance? Would you support a cuban invasion during the Cold War for similar reasons?
the involvement of neo-nazi far right paramilitary groups in the Maidan revolution in Ukraine were legitimate grievances for Russia.
Putin is also supported by neo-nazis. The premiere russian military organization in Ukraine was named Wagner. What is your argument here? Shitty people follow shitty ideologies. You fight with the people you have, not with the people you want to have. This is problematic but it isnt as if Ukraine was left with many alternatives.
Ukraine is not that different to Russia in the end. Both have insane corruption issues and both have neonazis. Neither is an excuse to invade anyone or to not help the victims of an invasion.
Russia’s resources are vast and they are supported by China. Ukraine is backed by the deep pockets of NATO.
Russia has the gdp of Italy. Russia is big in terms of geographical area but not really in terms of economy. If you think Russia has vast resources, wait till you find out about the resources the West has. It’s all about political will.
And China doesnt really support Russia, at least not in terms of military help, at least not for the moment. China supports Russia as much as Turkey supports it, ie it facilitates trade and takes advantage of Russia’s lack of alternatives when it comes to trading.
Over half a million troops on both sides have been killed
Casualties are not dead. It is dead+injured.
A diplomatic solution three years ago could have possibly prevented all that.
What diplomatic solution would have prevented Russia from invading? Should have the West pre-emptively sanctioned and cut off Russia from the world economy in order to prevent the invasion? Should the West have said “ok, we wont let Ukraine join NATO and EU”? Should countries not have the right to choose what they do?
Even during the early stages of invasion, Macron legitimately thought he could stop it, he still wanted to keep the bridge with Russia alive. Go back and read some articles. Now Macron is one of the most anti-Russia politicians in the world? Why? Because he eventually realized that there was no alternative and that Putin was bullshitting him the whole time.
In Russia’s mind there are 2 types of countries, sovereign countries where rules do not apply to (the US, China, Russia) and minor countries that are just following what their “master” country tells them. It is inconceivable to the russian mind that 2 countries could freely associate with each other. Hence the whole “NATO expansion” narrative. As if NATO tanks marched in and forced those countries to join it.
The exact opposite happened actually. Eastern Europe was so afraid even after the USSR collapse, that some of them blackmailed NATO to let them join. Poland literally threatened to get their own nukes if they werent allowed to join NATO.
Ask yourself, why would all eastern european countries want to join NATO? Your answer is the Ukraine invasion. They wanted to join because they didnt want to be like Ukraine is now.
Those are only a problem for Russia’s ambitions to conquer Ukraine. I.e. a problem for Putin’s ambitions, not Russians. NATO won’t even step into Ukraine to save an ally let alone invade a nuclear power like Russia.
Putin could’ve maintained good relations with gas importers, spent all this massive military funding on economic and infrastructure investments, and everyone but Putin would be happier for it.
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine.
In the beginning, Russia pledged never to invade Ukraine in exchange for all of the nuclear weapons.
So invade your country, grab a few parts, then we have a ceasefire and a diplomatic solution where i keep the land that i already got. And then i repeat it. Is this a “pro-peace” stand? Or is it a “pro-conquering” stance, that enables this behaviour?
Would he have the same opinion about nazi Germany invading and conquering other countries? Maybe a peace for our time kind of deal?
Meaning Ukraine should stop resisting its efforts to throw out the Russian invaders of their country. Literally parrotting Russian propaganda on the war.
The reason he fell from favor was a coordinated and relentless media attack and smear campaign because he was beholden to Old Labour values, and not New Labour’s brand of limp dick neoliberalism.
That may sound overly simplistic and vulgar, but it’s accurate, and if anything, less vulgar than the smear campaign that was used to gun down his political career as leader.
Good for him. I’ve never seen Jeremy Corbyn be anything other than decent and honest, and frank about his policies and why they are needed, even as he was treated terribly by the media. Hopefully he can be an effective voice in Parliament during this Labour government.
I’m not from the UK but when I last watched something with Corbyn he was shilling for Russia, how is that not an absolute deal-breaker?
The UK ‘Reform’ party are Russia shills and racists and they got 15% of the vote. I think a lot of the UK’s people are misguided by the media.
Pretty well established that Russian misinformation had a part to play in Brexit, yes?
Russian and American, though in the latter it was very wealthy individuals funding Leave rather than the State.
The money for Cambridge Analytica came from the US, not Russia.
Well that’s fucking disgusting
Certain parts of the media/political establishment certainly tried to paint him that way, but really he was only guilty of not being hawkish enough on Russia.
He was always in favor of a ceasefire and a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine conflict instead of perpetuating an endless war.
So… Touting the Russian narrative.
Anyone who’s been following the Ukraine conflict from the start knows this is a Russian talking-point.
And who says the war will be endless? That’s another Russian talking-point intending to sow defeatism.
He’s arguing that the West should have been tougher on Putin sooner and the UK should have admitted more Ukrainian refugees. I don’t see any clear sign of Russian influence here.
The Russia/Ukraine conflict is a lot more complex than people in the West generally think.
You won’t hear this often in mainstream media but NATO expansionism and the involvement of neo-nazi, far right paramilitary groups in the Maidan revolution in Ukraine, along with US State Department involvement, were legitimate grievances for Russia. (There’s a great interview with a Ukrainian sociologist here that I think explains things in a fairly even handed way).
Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but in the beginning there was a potential diplomatic resolution on the table if the US and NATO were willing to back off Ukraine. Support for joining NATO was always mixed in Ukraine anyway - Before the war, less than half of Ukrainians wanted it.
Russia’s resources are vast and they are supported by China. Ukraine is backed by the deep pockets of NATO. Over half a million troops on both sides have been killed. A recent UN report said:
and stated that over 30,000 civilians have already died. A diplomatic solution three years ago could have possibly prevented all that.
Whew, lots of half-truths and misinformation to unpack here, but I take it the gishgallop is the intent. Perhaps you should consider a ceasefire now because this argument will never end and you will slowly hemorrhage down-votes.
For starters, since you distinguish yourself from “people in the West,” I’m curious from where you reside? People from the West don’t normally say, “People in the west.”
NATO is primarily a defensive organization with a voluntary membership. Its bolstering is a direct reflection of the outside aggressive risks. In fact, prior to Putin’s invasion NATO was largely collecting dust. To be clear, Russia could just as easily reinstitute the Warsaw Pact – but the problem is nobody wants to join because there is no legitimate risk of NATO suddenly attacking a sovereign peaceful and stable nation. “nAtO EXpAnSioNism” is therefore utterly irrelevant and in fact, Russia is invoking a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Jn before pointing to fringe outlier incidents that are contextually much more complicated, or events where Russia could’ve vetoed but permitted on the UNSC).
As for far right neo-nazi groups, pro-tip: Azov doesn’t account for even 1% of the total UAF. Talk about pointing to outliers. But I’m sure Zelenskyy – who is Jewish and whose ancestors were in the Holocaust – is really neo-nazi… Just stop and think about it for a second :)
Let’s not forget that Putin has since backpedaled on the Budest Memorandum and like Hitler invading Poland, invaded a sovereign nation under the false pretenses of protecting ethnic groups. How awfully convenient.
Thus far you are drinking the Russia Vodka. I encourage you to stop being so gullibly duped.
Incorrect. What Putin actually stated was that so long as Ukraine didn’t join NATO, then he wouldn’t attack. Ukraine pledged to not join NATO, and yet Putin attacked them anyway. But you know, it sure is funny how all those nations under the NATO banner HAVEN’T been attacked by Russia. It’s almost like… That’s kind of the… Point of NATO? Golly!
Russia is using second-hand ammunitions from North Korea that are blowing up in the faces of Russian troops. Russia is seeking help from 2-bit nations like Iran, and sure, some help from China. But China’s economy is wholly dependent on its economic relations with USA, and so will not overextend.
Russia itself has an economy smaller than California. Aid will continue to Ukraine and Ukraine can easily out-pace Russia. After all, the smaller Soviet-Afghan War brought down a stronger USSR.
“No End in Sight” doesn’t mean endless war. People enter tunnels for which they cannot see the end; but that doesn’t mean it’s endless…
So I repeat what was dodged; What will Corbyn say and do when Ukraine commits to a ceasefire, loses 17% of its landmass, allows Russia to regroup its forces, and strikes again?
I took the time to explain a nuanced alternative viewpoint and support it with reliable sources. It’s pretty unfair to just dismiss it as a gish gallop or misinformation.
I don’t have time to sit down and fully respond to your points now, but hopefully I’ll have time later today.
I do appreciate sources, but you should know better by now that the majority of these points have been thoroughly debunked.
Instead of meandering on this wild goose-chase, why don’t you just respond with the two most relevant things:
(1) You said yourself, “Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, no question, but–”
NO BUTS. That’s IT. Russia is IN THE WRONG.
(2) How do you ensure a tyrant doesn’t regroup under a ceasefire and strike again after he gained a prize? In what realm do you believe dictators just suddenly stop without being smacked down? Did Hitler stop after he got Poland?
Sorry, but Russia has no legimitate grievances on anything that takes place inside of Ukraine.
Ditto on the NATO expansion and all that “argumentation” line you’re parroting: Russia and Ukraine are different soverign nations and none of them has any right to force the other to do anything, which does mean that it’s not up to Russia and never was the way Ukraine runs their government including which alliances they join, same as, for example, it was never up to the United States how Iraq was run (and why the American invasion of Iraq was just as immoral as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the “Saddam was a murderous dictator” is a totally bollocks excuse).
Up and until the point one of those nations actually harms the other, none of the has any right to do anything to the other and as it so happens, it was Russia that harmed Ukraine by invading it, so the only nation there with any legitimate grievances is Ukraine.
In fact since the Russian invasion and occupation of Crimea, Ukraine and Ukraine alone is the one nation of the two with legitimate grivances against the other.
Your whole “argument” is predicated on the notion that Russia as the large neighbouring nation has a say in the affairs of its smaller neighbouring nation Ukraine, which is just a nakedly imperialist view of the relations between states.
Dont sovereign countries have the right to join alliances? Would you support the US invading Mexico if Mexico joins a chinese led alliance? Would you support a cuban invasion during the Cold War for similar reasons?
Putin is also supported by neo-nazis. The premiere russian military organization in Ukraine was named Wagner. What is your argument here? Shitty people follow shitty ideologies. You fight with the people you have, not with the people you want to have. This is problematic but it isnt as if Ukraine was left with many alternatives.
Ukraine is not that different to Russia in the end. Both have insane corruption issues and both have neonazis. Neither is an excuse to invade anyone or to not help the victims of an invasion.
Russia has the gdp of Italy. Russia is big in terms of geographical area but not really in terms of economy. If you think Russia has vast resources, wait till you find out about the resources the West has. It’s all about political will.
And China doesnt really support Russia, at least not in terms of military help, at least not for the moment. China supports Russia as much as Turkey supports it, ie it facilitates trade and takes advantage of Russia’s lack of alternatives when it comes to trading.
Casualties are not dead. It is dead+injured.
What diplomatic solution would have prevented Russia from invading? Should have the West pre-emptively sanctioned and cut off Russia from the world economy in order to prevent the invasion? Should the West have said “ok, we wont let Ukraine join NATO and EU”? Should countries not have the right to choose what they do?
Even during the early stages of invasion, Macron legitimately thought he could stop it, he still wanted to keep the bridge with Russia alive. Go back and read some articles. Now Macron is one of the most anti-Russia politicians in the world? Why? Because he eventually realized that there was no alternative and that Putin was bullshitting him the whole time.
In Russia’s mind there are 2 types of countries, sovereign countries where rules do not apply to (the US, China, Russia) and minor countries that are just following what their “master” country tells them. It is inconceivable to the russian mind that 2 countries could freely associate with each other. Hence the whole “NATO expansion” narrative. As if NATO tanks marched in and forced those countries to join it.
The exact opposite happened actually. Eastern Europe was so afraid even after the USSR collapse, that some of them blackmailed NATO to let them join. Poland literally threatened to get their own nukes if they werent allowed to join NATO.
Ask yourself, why would all eastern european countries want to join NATO? Your answer is the Ukraine invasion. They wanted to join because they didnt want to be like Ukraine is now.
Those are only a problem for Russia’s ambitions to conquer Ukraine. I.e. a problem for Putin’s ambitions, not Russians. NATO won’t even step into Ukraine to save an ally let alone invade a nuclear power like Russia.
Putin could’ve maintained good relations with gas importers, spent all this massive military funding on economic and infrastructure investments, and everyone but Putin would be happier for it.
In the beginning, Russia pledged never to invade Ukraine in exchange for all of the nuclear weapons.
So invade your country, grab a few parts, then we have a ceasefire and a diplomatic solution where i keep the land that i already got. And then i repeat it. Is this a “pro-peace” stand? Or is it a “pro-conquering” stance, that enables this behaviour?
Would he have the same opinion about nazi Germany invading and conquering other countries? Maybe a peace for our time kind of deal?
See my comment here as a response.
I replied there.
Meaning Ukraine should stop resisting its efforts to throw out the Russian invaders of their country. Literally parrotting Russian propaganda on the war.
See my comment here as a response.
The reason he fell from favor was a coordinated and relentless media attack and smear campaign because he was beholden to Old Labour values, and not New Labour’s brand of limp dick neoliberalism.
That may sound overly simplistic and vulgar, but it’s accurate, and if anything, less vulgar than the smear campaign that was used to gun down his political career as leader.