Hello World, As many of you have probably noticed, there is a growing problem on the internet when it comes to undisclosed bias in both amateur and professional reporting. While not every outlet can be like the C-SPAN, or Reuters, we also believe that it’s impossible to remove the human element from the news, especially when it concerns, well, humans.
To this end, we’ve created a media bias bot, which we hope will keep everyone informed about WHO, not just the WHAT of posted articles. This bot uses Media Bias/Fact Check to add a simple reply to show bias. We feel this is especially important with the US Election coming up. The bot will also provide links to Ground.News, as well, which we feel is a great source to determine the WHOLE coverage of a given article and/or topic.
As always feedback is welcome, as this is a active project which we really hope will benefit the community.
Thanks!
FHF / LemmyWorld Admin team 💖
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I think having this post isn’t a great idea because you are just assuming the websites bias are legit. At the very least there needs to be a lot of warnings in the bots post about the websites biases and the methodology they use so the reader can come to their own conclusion.
Just looking over the methodlogy it’s clear that it has it’s own biases:
American Bias
The website itself says it’s distinctions of left and right are US based which is very skewed from the rest of the world. There should be a disclaimer or it shouldn’t be used in any world news communities.
Centrist Bias
The website follows the idea of “enlightened centrism” since if it determines a website has a left/right lean (again arbitrary) it affects the factual ratings of the sources.
Examples of this are: FAIR only getting the 2nd highest rating despite never having failed a fact check.
Despite my personal opinions on the pointlessness of using a US based left/right bias criteria I’d feel better if it was at least kept it it’s own section but when you allow it to affect the factual rating of the source it’s just outright wrong. The factual accuracy of the website should be the sole thing that affects this rating.
Questionable Fact Checking
Even just checking some of their ratings raises doubts on the websites credibility.
The ADL is rated as high (2nd highest) and wasn’t found to fail any fact checks.
“Wikipedia’s editors declared that the Anti-Defamation League cannot be trusted to give reliable information on the Israel-Palestine conflict, and they overwhelmingly said the ADL is an unreliable source on antisemitism.”
Maybe Wikipedia editors are a good arbiter of truth and maybe they aren’t but as people can see there isn’t a consensus and so by choosing Media Bias/Fact Check you’re explicitly choosing to align your “truth” with this websites biases.
I’ll add UN Watch to the list.
MBFC rates it as “highly credible” despite it publishing laughably bad hit-pieces on UN officials who openly criticize Israel.
I did a debunk on one of their articles that was removed from this very community due to disinformation, but I’ve posted a screenshot of my critique here for anyone who is interested.
The Intercept getting only a “mostly factual” rating (3rd highest) despite their admittance it has never failed a fact check.
This is literally in bold at the top of the page:
Overall, we rate The Intercept progressive Left Biased based on story selection that routinely favors the left. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to previous fabricated work and censorship of writers.
Fabricated work.
Is there anything that’s more of a capital crime in journalism than fabricating quotes? Surely we can all agree that publishing fiction as news is the opposite of factual reporting? They may not have failed a fact check in the last five years but it just isn’t possible for them to have published fabricated news without ever failing at least one. By their own admission they failed five in that incident alone.
I’m not going to die on the intercept hill here I’m fine with the fact that even though they fired the person it’s a stain on their record so sure let’s say that rating is fine.
It was one of the first 3 I checked so I’m sure I’ll find more that are problematic when I have a chance to look because it’s their methodology that’s biased. Also the other 2 I pointed out are clearly not correct.
Got rebuttals for any of my criticisms about the methodology?
Got rebuttals for any of my criticisms about the methodology?
I do!
I think the importance of American bias is overstated. What matters is that they’re transparent about it. That bias also impacts the least important thing they track. People often fixate on that metric when it has little impact on other metrics or on the most important question for this community: ‘how likely is it that this source is telling the truth?’ Left and right are relative terms that change drastically over time and space. They even mean different things at local and national levels within the same country. It’s not really an MBFC problem, it’s a the-world-is-complicated problem that isn’t easily solved. And it’s not like they’re listing far-right publications as far-left. Complaints are almost always like, “this source is center not center-left!” It’s small problems in the murky middle that shouldn’t be surprising or unexpected.
It’s also capturing something that happens more at the extremes where publications have additional goals beyond news reporting. Ignoring Fox’s problem with facts/misinfo, it doesn’t really bother me that they’re penalized for wanting to both report the news and promote a right-wing agenda. Promoting an agenda and telling the truth are often in conflict (note Fox’s problem with facts/misinfo). CBC News, for example, probably should have a slightly higher score for having no agenda beyond news reporting.
It might matter more if it impacted the other metrics, but it doesn’t really. Based on MBFC’s methodology, it’s actually impossible for editorial bias alone to impact the credibility rating without having additional problems – you can lose a max 2 points for bias, but must lose 5 to be rated “medium credibility”. I don’t know why FAIR is rated highly factual (and I’d love for them to be a bit more transparent about it) but criticizing bias leading to them being rated both highly factual and highly credible feels like less than a death blow. If it’s a problem, it seems like a relatively small one.
MBFC also isn’t an outlier compared to other organizations. This study looked at 6 bias-monitoring organizations and found them basically in consensus across thousands of news sites. If they had a huge problem with bias, it’d show in that research.
On top of that, none of this impacts this community at all. It could be a problem if the standard here was ‘highest’ ratings exclusively, but it isn’t. And no one’s proposing that it should be. I post stories from the Guardian regularly without a problem and they’re rated mixed factual and medium credibility for failing a bunch of fact checks, mostly in op-ed (And I think the Guardian is a great, paywall-less paper that should fact check a bit better).
So I think the things you point out are well buffered by their methodology and by not using the site in a terrible, draconian way.
I think the importance of American bias is overstated. What matters is that they’re transparent about it. That bias also impacts the least important thing they track.
It affects the overall credibility rating of the source, how is that the least important thing? They also seem to let it affect the factual reporting rating despite not clearly stating that in the methodology.
Based on MBFC’s [methodology](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/methodology/), it’s actually impossible for editorial bias alone to impact the credibility rating without having additional problems
This is only true specifically when you’re thinking about it as a great source can’t have its credibility rating lowered. A not great factual source can get a high credibility rating if it’s deemed centrist enough which again is arbitrary based on the (effectively) 1 guys personal opinion.
High Credibility Score Requirement: 6
Example 1
Factual Reporting Mixed: 1
No left/right bias: 3
Traffic High: 2
Example 2
Factual Reporting Mostly Factual: 2
No left/right bias: 3
Traffic Medium: 1
See how weighing credibility on a (skewed) left/right bias metric waters this down? Both of these examples would get high credibility.
On top of that, none of this impacts this community at all. It could be a problem if the standard here was ‘highest’ ratings exclusively, but it isn’t.
That’s a fair point and I did state in my original post that despite my own feelings I’d be open to something like this if the community had been more involved in the process of choosing one/deciding one is necessary and also if we had the bots post clearly call out it’s biases, maybe an explanation of its methodology and the inherent risks in it.
The way it’s been pushed from the mod first without polling the community and seeing the reaction to criticism some of which was constructive is my main issue here really.
This is only true specifically when you’re thinking about it as a great source can’t have its credibility rating lowered. A not great factual source can get a high credibility rating if it’s deemed centrist enough which again is arbitrary based on the (effectively) 1 guys personal opinion.
The impact either way is slight. I’m sure you could find a few edge cases you could make an argument about because no methodology is perfect, but each outlier represents a vanishingly small (~0.01%) amount of their content. When you look at rigorous research on the MBFC dataset though, the effect just isn’t really there. Here’s another study that concludes that the agreement between bias-monitoring organizations is so high that it doesn’t matter which one you use. I’ve looked and I can’t find research that finds serious bias or methodological problems. Looking back at the paper I posted in my last comment, consensus across thousands of news organizations is just way too high to be explainable by chance. If it was truly arbitrary as people often argue, MBFC would be an outlier. If all the methodologies were bad, the results would be all over the map because there are many more ways to make a bad methodology than a good one. What the research says is that if one methodology is better than the others, it isn’t much better.
Again, I think you make a really good argument for why MBFC and sites like it shouldn’t be used in an extreme, heavy-handed way. But it matters if it has enough precision for our purposes. Like, if I’m making bread, I don’t need a scale that measures in thousandths of a gram. A gram scale is fine. I could still churn out a top-shelf loaf with a scale that measures in 10-gram units. This bot is purely informational. People are reacting like it’s a moderation change but it isn’t – MBFC continues to be one resource among many that mods use to make decisions. Many react as though MBFC declares a source either THE BEST or THE WORST (I think a lot of those folks aren’t super great with nuance) but what it mostly does is say ‘this source is fine but there’s additional info or context worth considering.’ Critics often get bent out of shape about the ranking but almost universally neglect the fact that, if you click that link, there’s a huge report on each source that provides detailed info about their ownership history, funding model, publishing history, biases, and the press freedom of the country they’re in. Almost every time, there are reasonable explanations for the rankings in the report. I have not once ever seen someone say, like, ‘MBFC says that this is owned by John Q. Newspaperman but it’s actually owned by the Syrian government,’ or ‘they claim that they had a scandal with fabricated news but that never happened’. Is there a compelling reason why we’re worse off knowing that information? If you look at the actual reports for Breitbart and the Kyiv Independent, is there anything in there that we’re better off not knowing?
Like I kinda said in my last paragraphs you’ve got fair points that it may be good enough for what it’s being used for here (despite it’s clear biases) since it’s not being used to disallow posts. Although other commenters have said it has a pro-Zionist bias as well which is honestly more concerning than things I’ve pointed out. Haven’t had time to check beyond the ADL one.
Overall my main issue is the community wasn’t really asked if one was desired, which one should be used, how it should be used, etc. Because of that and the lack of good response by the poster I’ve already decided to follow other world news communities instead of this one.
A standard of factuality needs to include a provision of avoiding emotionally-loaded, manipulative language. Otherwise you can pump unlimited amounts of propaganda with full factuality simply by “asking questions”.
I wont disagree that there should be a ranking for using loaded language but combining it with the factuality ranking twists what the ranking means since to the average person they’re going to read that as how accurate the facts are.
It should be its own separate rating from factuality. Again if we’re going to have to have a bot like this put clear disclaimers and ideally find a better one than this.
I disagree. I think emotional language is fundamentally the opposite of real objectivity, and cannot be honestly acknowledged as factual in any confirmable way.
It has no place in objective discussions, and employing it in any way, shape or form makes one deserve objectivity demerits.
edit: And objectivity and factuality are synonyms.
This is a really well-reasoned response… Which probably means the mods will ignore it
Given the overwhelmingly negative response from the community, what is the justification for leaving the bot in place? Is it because the moderators think they know better than everyone else?
Overwhelmingly negative? Those are the 24/7 negative users. We do anything: Those guys: THIS IS IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
So you stand alone in that statement. See the post vote score.
We give you the option to block it. Block it.
Got it, only enthusiastic yes men are actually counted as valid members of the community.
Interesting take, gotta admit.
Real Reddit vibes from Rooki over this one.
When your community is built from Redditors it’s sort of bound to happen
Numerous comments contain thoughtfully researched, balanced and reasonable criticisms, and your reaction is to basically call them just a bunch of negative nellies, rather than to consider maybe whether they have a point.
If I made a bot that shared fake news in comments on every single news story, would you say that having the option to block that bot is sufficient? I can block anyone, yet you still ban people for breaking the rules here.
You’re getting way too defensive, and digging your heels in - criticism isn’t always bad faith.
They have a point but strict fake news it isnt. It is not an option to leave it without any second bias opinion. Its not banning anyone. If you dislike it and demand it to be shutdown for democracy. Then you arent allowing other opinions.
Well, it’s more that the mods know that people don’t have an alternative
I’m just gonna drop this here as an example:
- https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-report/
- https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/
The Jerusalem Report (Owned by Jerusalem Post) and the Jerusalem Post
This biased as shit publication is declared by MBFC as VEEEERY slightly center-right. They make almost no mention of the fact that they cherry pick aspects of the Israel war to highlight, provide only the most favorable context imaginable, yadda yadda. By no stretch of the imagination would these publications be considered unbiased as sources, yet according to MBFC they’re near perfect.
Interesting how @Rooki is still a day later active in this post responding to all the comments supporting their bot, but manages to avoid replying to all the legitimate criticisms on display.
Really shows the mods don’t value feedback, which begs the question why even bother making a thread to get feedback if you’ve already made up your mind.
Remove that. It’s too US centric. I don’t want that here.
Please get rid of it. I’ll figure my own truth from facts I descern are true. I don’t need someone else telling me what to believe. Especially with the election coming up…
It has been pointed out multiple times that mbfc is ran by a Zionist.
There is no way the mod team is not aware of this by now so it must be on purpose.
The mod team is absolutely aware of the criticisms - they’re censoring them.
I just got a comment deleted just for telling OP to engage with the criticism instead of hiding away with people who agree with them.
I wonder if they were former Reddit power mods?
Your comment was deleted for the insult, I’m guessing. I can still see it in the mod log.
There’s a reason lemmy.ml mocks MBFC daily lmao
What a terrible idea.
MBFC is already incredibly biased.
It should be rejected not promoted.
Ok then tell me an alternative we can use in the scale for free.
None? Then pls dont just complain complain complain… And dont suggest improvements.
So much for “feedback is welcome” I guess
Boooo. Running a community as a mod-dictator and not being able to hear feedback and react to it like an adult. Just because you thought of something, doesn’t mean it is a good idea or that people will like it. The approach of “better than nothing” is naive and plain wrong - misinformation isn’t “better than nothing” it actively hurts the community.
You don’t.
There doesn’t exist a site to magically do what you want.
Likewise it’s not needed. It doesn’t add to the quality of discussion on the community. All it’s going to do is cause conflict as we now have to constantly point out to people how garbage the source is so that they don’t let it influence them.
I find the only people that say MBFC is biased, are just saying they themselves have biased opinions so they don’t agree with the MBFC rating
I’m 1000% with you on this
Choosing one organization to be the arbiter of truth and bias gives them way too much power. I think fact checking should be the responsibility of whoever reads the article.
Yes but have you considered that by using a fixed source you can shift the Overton window to where you want it to be?
At least I acknowledge that the Overton window on lemmy.ml leans to the left. This is just slowly tilting the Overton window on lemmy.world to the right.
Why does the bot spend so much space asking for donations to mediabiasfactcheck.com and thanking them for an api? Especially when it’s one of the few areas not in a spoiler block so it’s always shown?
Because it’s free money for MBFC
The mods on this community have always had a rather unhealthy relationship with MBFC
While I’m not as concerned with MBFC as many others are, why not use Wikipedia’s RSP as the datasource? Made by the most reliable user-generated platform in the world, it’s a great list of controversial sources and is completely open. Changes are also infrequent enough so that adding to the database by hand would be quite easy.
I also echo the concerns raised below on the uselessness at a glance due to the accordion hiding the only information and purpose the bot was created to serve.
Because the mods on this community would rather choose a source that they agree with than a source that’s reliable.
I think it’s a great addition, but it sure does eat up a lot of space. Any way it can be condensed to the absolute basic information?
This is what it looks like for me on Boost:
See reply in support post
That’s just introducing 2 more sources of bias
Both sides? Geeet outta here.
That’s literally what the other source being added called Groundnews attempts to do.
I understand your edgy take, but equivocating reliable and consistent mediators that accurately discern real news from propaganda with trash like Infowars as “more bias” is nonsense.
Yeah, I’m not saying all their work is worthless and I know they’re good enough for the most extreme sources of misinformation but to paint entire publications as not reliable based on the assessment of couple laypeople with an inherently narrow worldview (at least a very American-centric one) is the opposite of avoiding bias in my opinion.
Not entirely and unequivocally avoiding bias every time isn’t the “opposite of avoiding bias”, it’s an example of perfect being the enemy of good.
There may technically be inherent bias everywhere, but it’s at best useless and in practice harmful and inaccurate to lump MBFC in with grayzone and to equivocate in general.
Example from 2020:
“Biden is just another politician, like Trump”
Technically true that they are both politicians, but without recognizing the difference between Biden and trump, the states wouldn’t have student debt cancellations, no federal minority legal defenses, fifty plus liberally appointed judges, no reversal of the trans ban, no veteran health coverage for toxic exposure, no green new deal, no international climate accords, no healthcare expansion and so on.
or:
“who cares, it’s just another plant”, but arugula is a great salad green while a bite of foxglove can kill you.
It’s important to recognize the shades of grey and distinguish one from another.
How fucked is it that such a poorly written book has ruined the extremely useful phrase “shades of grey”?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/radio-free-asia/
This what scores you high credibility: “a less direct propaganda approach” for state sponsored media that is not critical of its sponsor
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/
And this is what scores you mixed credibility: “exhibits significant bias against Israel” for state sponsored media that is not critical of its sponsor (updated in Oct 2023 naturally)
Now every article published by Radio Free Asia is deemed more credible than those published by Al Jazeera despite the former literally being called a former propaganda arm of the state in their own assessment. Yes, good is not the enemy of perfect but this is clearly an ideological decision in both instances.
CNN also scores as Mostly Factual based on “due to two failed fact checks in the last five years” one being a single reporter’s statement and the other being about Greenland’s ice sheets. That doesn’t seem like a fair assessment to me
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/left/cnn-bias/
So based on this I am supposed to conclude that Radio Free Asia is the most credible source out of the three at a glance.
I appreciate having this bot, and I also think that it can be tweaked to be better. Are there other services that do something similar (ex. I see ground.news in the bot comments). What might be better is if there was a bot that linked to a few different options, so that people can benefit from the extra information. I seem to remember a Lemmy bot that was doing something like that last year, but I can’t find it now.
For example, a format like this might get the benefits of the bot while also addressing the concerns people have:
Information for
News Source Name- Media Bias Fact Check: Centre-Left Bias, Mostly Factual, Germany
- Wikipedia: Left Bias, Privately Owned, High Factuality
- See the Ground News page for this article to compare bias and credibility with other sources
See this page to learn about this bot, and how you can support the tools above.
If the bot was open sourced somewhere, then people could contribute improvements to formatting and add/remove sources as appropriate. It doesn’t need to be a fully democratic process, as the maintainers would get the final say, but it would make people trust the tool a lot more.
Other small tweaks / bugs
- The links need an
https://at the start, else it breaks and showshttps://instance/LINK - If the data can be condensed some more, with inline links as opposed to full ones. Yes we should recommend that developers fix their apps/frontends, but with federation it’s likely that there will be breakages in a lot of places. Improvements to comment format will help.
- I’m not sure if the thank you and donation link is appropriate in the comment, since it feels like an advertisement / endorsement. Having that information on a separate link would be more fair. For example, ground.news also has a donation page, but it’s not in the comment.
Thanks for the feedback. With the new format we will think about it, but i think this is pretty good.
We will discuss this and come back to you. We would love to open sourc ethe bot but the code quality for reading is not in a good state. We will have to clean the code up. But we will be working for that.
So the reasons against open sourcing the bot is because you’d be embarrassed?
Mods, I appreciate this bot!
Deciphering media bias is tough, and finding 1 site that will ‘perfectly’ identify biases is an impossible task, but at the minimum having this bot show up on posts ‘gets people thinking’ about the credibility of their news sources.
MBFC doesn’t have to be the ultimate arbitrator either. If it is missing something about a specific article people can call it out in the comments. At the end of the day, the worst thing it does is add more data about a news source and I’m not gonna complain about that.
Actually, I’ve checked, and you’re an unreliable commenter. Sorry.
A lot of the criticism I’ve seen thus far falls into two categories:
- Users complaining that their favorite source is scored poorly
- Users complaining that the ratings have various sources of statistical bias
The ones in the first group I think should take it as a wakeup call that they are either headline shopping or missing out on other perspectives of current events. This is especially important on the international stage where armed conflicts will naturally produce two opposing accounts (and lots of propaganda).
The second group have a point - MBFC isn’t the end all be all, but it’s certainly better than nothing. Having meaningful bias measurements for each relevant scale would be impressive but way beyond what MBFC aims to do.
So all in all - I see this as a very positive change
Thanks! Your points are perfectly on target.
If we had any other api with parity of media bias / fact check, then we would have included it, but we only see paid, no api available.
But for now we have added a ground.news search link so that everyone can see a third opinion on it.
