Depends. If you’re at a complete stop, the intersection has good visibility (so you can see there’s no traffic), and the roads aren’t too large, it’s pretty similar to other maneuvers like a stop sign or uncontrolled left turn.
I didn’t trust drivers to properly make these judgements so they shouldn’t do it at all, though.
It depends on the driving culture in a city. In the city I used to work in, there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended. Obviously, all of this can be avoided with public transit, but these are the realities of driving.
People who slam on the breaks to avoid running a red are not deliberately running reds, they’re estimating that they have time to NOT run a red and changing their estimation too late
In response to someone saying, essentially, “there is no safe way to run a red light”, you stated,
"there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended. "
What I understand you mean by this is that there was a culture in which people ran red lights regularly. [Aside: this kind of behavior is known to be associated with elevated fatality rates in urban collisions, especially when they involve pedestrians and cyclists. Choosing to do this kind of behavior is as reprehensible as antimaskery/antivaxxery]. Then, when the relevant government entity began enforcing laws against running reds with automatic camera /radar systems, people began slamming on their brakes to avoid running a red light. This increased the number of rear-end type collisions.
Did I get anything wrong?
The reason I said,
This is far less likely to injure or kill than the kind of collision that occurs more often when people are trying to deliberately run a red light.
To be clear, I completely agree with you when you said,
“Obviously, all of this can be avoided with public transit,”
but I cannot support the clause that follows,
“these are the realities of driving.”
because red light running, drunk driving, speeding, excessive aggression, and other unsafe habits are personal decisions (sure, they’re incentivized and amplified by our shitty automobile-centric system) by which a driver chooses to make other people unsafe (with no care for their consent) to gain at best a marginal improvement in their own convenience.
so the objection here is not about running the red light and the dangerous part you mentioned is danger to herself because she’s providing evidence then?
That’s not what I said. In the event that the driving culture in the city (light timing, other drivers’ expectations, etc) makes it so that you are encouraged to run a red light, do it in such a way as to minimize any danger to yourself and anyone around you. Quite frankly it’s very possible that being on her phone was a more dangerous choice than running the red light.
In the event that the driving culture in the city (light timing, other drivers’ expectations, etc) makes it so that you are encouraged to run a red light, do it in such a way as to minimize any danger to yourself and anyone around you.
This is asinine. The way you minmize danger to yourself and anyone around you is not running a red light. “My justified running red lights due to other driver expectations” vs. “Her obviously dangerous running red lights because I don’t wanna wait” isn’t even a false dichotomy, it’s not even a dichotomy. That’s the same thing except you figure it’s fine when you do it.
In the city I used to work in, there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended. Do not ever, EVER follow the law if other drivers are expecting you to break it. That is far more dangerous. If the speed limit is 35 and everyone is going 80, you need to match their speed or you risk someone no paying attention slamming into you. Same with stops, lights, etc. It comes down to the culture in the city.
It is dangerous to drive distracted. It is not dangerous, comparatively, to drive the exact same way everyone else does.
In the city I used to work in, there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended.
This is quite obviously not the fault of the red light cameras, it’s the fault of people who don’t know how to keep a safe distance to the car infront of them.
Do not ever, EVER follow the law if other drivers are expecting you to break it. That is far more dangerous. If the speed limit is 35 and everyone is going 80, you need to match their speed or you risk someone no paying attention slamming into you.
Sounds like maybe someone should do something about people doing 80 in a 35, distracted.
This entire line of argument is a race to the bottom, even for car drivers, nevermind anybody not inside a car who is far safer around somebody doing 35 than 80.
Car brain has spread even here. People convinced they can break all the rules because they understand the “culture” lmao.
car brains are the ones creating this toxic dangerous “culture”
This is quite obviously not the fault of the red light cameras, it’s the fault of people who don’t know how to keep a safe distance to the car infront of them.
Moot.
Sounds like maybe someone should do something about people doing 80 in a 35, distracted.
Moot.
This entire line of argument is a race to the bottom, even for car drivers, nevermind anybody not inside a car who is far safer around somebody doing 35 than 80.
Moot.
It doesn’t matter what driving should be like. This is what it is, and if you don’t follow it then you are putting yourself and others in danger.
It doesn’t matter what driving should be like. This is what it is
It’s not an immuteable fact, you know? In fact, you could help change it by not blaming red light cameras for people being rear ended by people not keeping a safe distance
this is basically the infallible car driver fallacy again. This is inevitably going to fuck up while being entirely preventable. Eventually people get distracted, or someone rides around in the dark with broken or turned off lights, or maybe it’s just a pedestrian, cyclist, scooter or motorcycle that the quick scan car drivers do just looks right past because it’s not car and then somebody gets injured or hurt.
Maybe the red lights where she is are just so poorly timed that she is encouraged to run a red?
It’s possible. If you’re going to run a red, do it safely and not on camera.
WTF? I think safety has gone out the window when you run a red light.
Depends. If you’re at a complete stop, the intersection has good visibility (so you can see there’s no traffic), and the roads aren’t too large, it’s pretty similar to other maneuvers like a stop sign or uncontrolled left turn.
I didn’t trust drivers to properly make these judgements so they shouldn’t do it at all, though.
It depends on the driving culture in a city. In the city I used to work in, there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended. Obviously, all of this can be avoided with public transit, but these are the realities of driving.
This is far less likely to injure or kill than the kind of collision that occurs more often when people are trying to deliberately run a red light.
People who slam on the breaks to avoid running a red are not deliberately running reds, they’re estimating that they have time to NOT run a red and changing their estimation too late
Agreed.
Moot and completely misunderstanding what I am saying.
I don’t think this is the case
Then explain how you understand what I am saying
not the person in the chain, but it came across something like “trying to change an unsafe driving culture is the real problem”
In response to someone saying, essentially, “there is no safe way to run a red light”, you stated,
What I understand you mean by this is that there was a culture in which people ran red lights regularly. [Aside: this kind of behavior is known to be associated with elevated fatality rates in urban collisions, especially when they involve pedestrians and cyclists. Choosing to do this kind of behavior is as reprehensible as antimaskery/antivaxxery]. Then, when the relevant government entity began enforcing laws against running reds with automatic camera /radar systems, people began slamming on their brakes to avoid running a red light. This increased the number of rear-end type collisions.
Did I get anything wrong?
The reason I said,
is because shifting the distribution of collisions away from red-light-running-involved collisions, which frequently involve higher speeds than rear-end type collisions, results in a reduction in all kinds of fatal crashes, and a significant reduction in non-fatal crashes. . It is empirically better to have a slight increase in rear end collisions if it cooccurs with a decrease in more severe collisions.
To be clear, I completely agree with you when you said,
but I cannot support the clause that follows,
because red light running, drunk driving, speeding, excessive aggression, and other unsafe habits are personal decisions (sure, they’re incentivized and amplified by our shitty automobile-centric system) by which a driver chooses to make other people unsafe (with no care for their consent) to gain at best a marginal improvement in their own convenience.
so the objection here is not about running the red light and the dangerous part you mentioned is danger to herself because she’s providing evidence then?
That’s not what I said. In the event that the driving culture in the city (light timing, other drivers’ expectations, etc) makes it so that you are encouraged to run a red light, do it in such a way as to minimize any danger to yourself and anyone around you. Quite frankly it’s very possible that being on her phone was a more dangerous choice than running the red light.
This is asinine. The way you minmize danger to yourself and anyone around you is not running a red light. “My justified running red lights due to other driver expectations” vs. “Her obviously dangerous running red lights because I don’t wanna wait” isn’t even a false dichotomy, it’s not even a dichotomy. That’s the same thing except you figure it’s fine when you do it.
In the city I used to work in, there were the number of accidents went up due to the city putting up red light cameras because the culture at the time was to run reds for a bit after the light changed. When they put up the cameras, people would slam on their brakes and get rear ended. Do not ever, EVER follow the law if other drivers are expecting you to break it. That is far more dangerous. If the speed limit is 35 and everyone is going 80, you need to match their speed or you risk someone no paying attention slamming into you. Same with stops, lights, etc. It comes down to the culture in the city.
It is dangerous to drive distracted. It is not dangerous, comparatively, to drive the exact same way everyone else does.
This is quite obviously not the fault of the red light cameras, it’s the fault of people who don’t know how to keep a safe distance to the car infront of them.
Sounds like maybe someone should do something about people doing 80 in a 35, distracted.
This entire line of argument is a race to the bottom, even for car drivers, nevermind anybody not inside a car who is far safer around somebody doing 35 than 80.
Car brain has spread even here. People convinced they can break all the rules because they understand the “culture” lmao. car brains are the ones creating this toxic dangerous “culture”
Moot.
Moot.
Moot.
It doesn’t matter what driving should be like. This is what it is, and if you don’t follow it then you are putting yourself and others in danger.
It’s not an immuteable fact, you know? In fact, you could help change it by not blaming red light cameras for people being rear ended by people not keeping a safe distance
Then no one should be driving
what if idaho stop, but for cars?
There are intersections that are so open and clear that you can ascertain with full certainty that there is NO risk to others.
you need all of 2 people thinking this and some unfortunate timing before they run into each other
A blank intersection with clear sightlines doesnt have 2 people
this is basically the infallible car driver fallacy again. This is inevitably going to fuck up while being entirely preventable. Eventually people get distracted, or someone rides around in the dark with broken or turned off lights, or maybe it’s just a pedestrian, cyclist, scooter or motorcycle that the quick scan car drivers do just looks right past because it’s not car and then somebody gets injured or hurt.