Exactly what the title says, Christianity in all its various strains still stems from the horrendous old testament, and with all the awful shit that endorses, as well as with things like Calvinism and the general doomsday cult foundations in the religion, why do some people still act so charitably towards it? Christianity has proven itself to be a morally corrupt and oppressive institution at every turn. Or maybe I’m just too negative? 
EDIT Ok guys I get it this was rather reductionist, and I definitely was disregarding all the good that religious folks have done, and that religion has inspired people to do, but again over correcting into enthusiastic support for religion can also be problematic.
Christianity as an organization of political power is a horrible stain on humanity and likely always will be.
Christianity as a personal or small community religion is actually a really beautiful and hopeful thing. Christianity does not start and end with the old testament, it ends with an overcoming of many of the regressive messages within the old testament and strong recurring themes of hope based around community. The bible is a pretty important world text and has a lot of great messages in it.
Basically, attack systemic issues and organizations rather than individual beliefs.
i’ve had more luck in my personal life pushing left curious Christians further left using this methodology. i don’t belitte their beliefs just reinforce the good stuff, focus on the institutions, etc. there are legions of seemingly “socially conservative Christians” out there that are actually just nascent christian socialists but just don’t know that’s an option because all they see on TV is demonic Prosperity Theory grifters and psychotic fire and brimstone shit
I do often feel like we overcorrected after New Atheism, and also Catholicism gets too much of free pass on the anglo internet, which irks when you live somewhere where Catholic orgs are literally funding the hard right, BUT secularism is vitally important imo, and that means freedom of worship for everyone
Yeah, it’s not fun sitting in Poland and anglo socs doing apologetics for cath establishment
And they’ll use that freedom to worship as freedom to oppress. Would you give a Nazi the time of day in debating their beliefs?
Because most people on this site aren’t Marxists. It’s as simple as that. They want to believe that religions that have been oppressing people for thousands of years can be reformed somehow. It’s kinda baffling for a website with such a large LGBT+ userbase.
Mate, Islam paved the way for me to embrace Communism. Saying this as an atheist, it’s silly to alienate people from our cause because they were raised culturally to believe in some religion or another.
Astrology is goofy, not materialist in any way, and really bothers me, but I don’t go telling radical comrades I’ve been out doing direct actions with that they aren’t real Marxists because they make that thinking error.
“Our cause?” Hexbear doesn’t have a cause, it doesn’t do anything. It has the least revolutionary potential of any leftist website I’ve ever used. I’m here because it’s fun to shitpost sometimes.
IRL, yeah, there are better uses of your time than trying to convince people that astrology is bullshit. But having a materialist worldview and believing in astrology (or religion, for that matter) are contradictory, and getting rid of those brainworms via self-crit is something any communist should be trying to do.
I should mention that I’m not trying to portray myself as the perfect commie here, I still have my own brainworms. It’s just the kind of thing that we should all be striving to get rid of.
Hey I’m fine with that viewpoint on religion as a whole but this part:
most people on this site aren’t Marxists
is completely unnecessary. Good comrades can disagree on things like this and still be materialists.
I don’t mean it in the sense that “everyone that disagrees with me isn’t a real Marxist,” I genuinely don’t think the majority of people on this website read theory. Hexbear leans much more into shitposting than other leftist forums I use, and I don’t see nuanced materialist analysis here very often.
I like how easily we can answer the reform or revolution question in relation to literally everything else.
Bit idea: Guy who calls the new testament the woke testament
Judaism also stems from the old testament, should we remove Jews for what is in their holy book?
The Catholic Church (And the Anglican Church, and many Lutheran Churches, and thousands of Baptist Churches) has committed great evils, but original sin is not a marxist doctrine and we cannot hold the average Christian responsible for the actions of everyone everywhere who professed the faith, and you are not likely to see support for such things amongst the Christians posting here. If a Christian is supporting the slave trade or the nazis on hexbear they are likely to be banned and find no support among other believers.
Removed by mod
First rule of politics: learn to count.
Socialism needs power, not purity. Power comes from the size of the support base.
Socialism has historically been helped by religious support same way as it’s been helped by nationalist support.
I’m curious, which socialist causes would you say have been helped in a major way by religion? I know liberation theology exists but that’s about the extent of my knowledge, and my baseline knowledge says that of the current and former AES projects, while there might be some religious base supporting the cause in latin america, I am unfamiliar with the specifics.
On a separate note, I would argue that the relationship between religion and support for left-wing causes is unlikely to be the same in the imperial core as in formerly colonized countries. As you say, the creation of a nationalist, anti-colonial movement has been useful historically in countries like China, Vietnam, and Cuba, but obviously we wouldn’t expect an American communist movement to seriously attempt to rally around the flag. Similarly, I wouldn’t expect a revolution in the US to attempt to ally with the domestic bourgeoisie as they did in China.
Well one example would be that many Quakers have been active radicals for a variety of causes over hundreds of years, including but not limited to; opressive Christian church structures, monastic heirarchies, slavery abolition, pacifism, democratic representation for all manner of people (women, minorities, non-landowners) over the years, factory workers rights, safe housing, fairer wages, prison reform, anti-poorhouse campaigning, environmental movements, LGBTQ+ rights, rights for refugees, and more.
Even just personally over the last two decades (I’m not a Quaker, but have Quaker comrades) I’ve engaged direct action with a disproportionate amount of Quakers against US imperialist bases, against airport expansion, refugee defence and de-arrests, the campaign for nuclear disarmament in the 90s and the anti-war movement in the 2000s, as well as pro-Palestinian activism.
And this month UK pigs raided a Quaker meeting house - a place of worship equivalent to them raiding a church - smashing down the doors and arresting people for merely providing a place for people to discuss a potential protest. The first time the state has done so in hundreds of years.
There’s lots of socialist Quakers, some communist Quakers, and far far more that are still fighting for radical causes. And that’s just one small branch of Christianity.
MLK jr was a minister
Fair enough, I just saw some comments in the thread for the Pope’s death that really rubbed me the wrong way…
This is gonna blow your mind, but you can be religious and a good socialist at the same time.
The church closest to my home is where I do some of my community gardening. They know full well that I’m a socialist, an atheist, and bisexual, and they don’t care in the slightest. As far as they’re concerned, actions trump beliefs—good works are God’s work, they’ve told me. They’re fundraising to build an affordable housing co-op for displaced First Nations folks in the community, and they broke ground on the first block last year!
Theory didn’t stop in 1844 when Marx said we need to move beyond religion for the working class. We can do better.
We can move beyond their garbage beliefs. The Bible is trash and should be treated as such. It promotes hate,removed, murder, genocide. Oh such good values to uphold.
Cuz I’m Catholic
Shit my bad I take it all back.
Surface-level interpretation.
Every religion gets swarmed and contorted by reactionaries because they see they can use it as a source of power, never mind how there is almost always pro-social, anti-oppression, and anti-stratification principles at the core.
the horrendous old testament
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This kind of New Atheist position ends up having the same approach to the Bible that fundies do.
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You mean the Jewish scriptures, right?
So where is the billion plus movement of progressive religious people then?
Liberation theologies have quite a bit of influence in Latin America, Palestine, Ireland, and among Black communities in the US.
Ah… I didn’t mean to dog whistle or anything like that, I see the issue but it’s just frustrating to see people endorse these things that have CW (Suicide, SA etc)
spoiler
lead to the suicide of one of my friends, and SA’d others that went to the Catholic schools nearby.
We don’t defend Pol Pot, Ceausescu, etc; and we don’t give up on Communism because of a couple abuses of power, even if they caused lots of bloodshed.
We prize the ability to distinguish between a movement itself and specific cases of institutions that spring up from it.
Pol Pot, Ceausescu, and progressive Christians are all outliers in their movements.
Fair enough, I definitely let emotions get to my head with this one. Sorry yall.
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i suppose there’s gotta be somewhere for the 1% of christians who wouldn’t lynch every gay person on the planet to chat amongst themselves
0.01%
a) institution is not religion tho, beliefs are what you make of them
b) new testament is compatible with socialism in myriads of way (one might say suspiciously so :lunacharsky-shining:).
c) soviet crusade against religion was wildly unsuccessful, to put it mildly (both at home and especially abroad). you come at 2000 year old institution, you best not miss and things of that nature
d) …last sigh of the oppressed implies until there is memory of oppression you can’t jettison religion, not really, until people can control their fate, they’ll always be religious in some shape or form somewhere
new testament is compatible with socialism in myriads of way
There’s also a myriad of ways it is not. You won’t find a less dialectical materialist analysis than the sermont on the mount
i’m just saying, with the situation the left and the world is in, and adding historical experience, i think it’s counterproductive to dismiss religion flat-out (or rather engage in pointless fighting around it, we don’t have power to change it, and religions have some affinities we can draw on, depending on religion/means of production development/society safety nets as they are/depraved profit seeking stage)
It is valid to highlight the good done by Christians and the ways in which Christians can support and be a part of a socialist project, but I don’t think it’s necessary to pretend that the new testament is inherent socialist to do so.
i’m saying socialism bears the mark of christianity (either by emphasis or by negation), not the other way around tbh. plus dialectical materialism doesn’t inherently contain ethics or morals, people just input their own.
i’m absolutely whatever on people hating christianity due to their own horrible experience, that’s fair enough, just as it’s fair for people in shit situations to embrace it. dismissing it however, as non-productive/non-compatible with our goals, is judging by history, not a great idea. *it’s non-compatible with feuerbach religion development which marxists typically use (i think its feuerbach?) and thus with ontological view in general, but compatible with goals with some shenanigans on emphasis, same as anarchism tbh.
institution is not religion tho, beliefs are what you make of them
If you claim that every major group that claims to be christian is not actually christian, then what claim do you have to be an actual christian instead of them?
Also, if you consider every such group to not good, then why do you want to base your beliefs on their fiction that they consistently use for horrible stuff that ranges from abuse on a personal level to colonialism, slavery, and genocide?cause i’m more christian than they are, literally same claim they make. if your christianity consists of 15 minutes in sunday church and denial of benefits in your work time or making bombs, i do think you are not a christian, i don’t give a flying fuck what your priest says about intentions. If your faith consists of hating people, as it’s the lowest form of prayer to hope for misfortune of your enemies, i do think you are full of shit. (and i’m agnostic, cause i think christians are full of shit as a whole, but i do recognize that my morality was significantly influenced by christianity either by osmosis or bible)
if you think colonialism, slavery or genocide wouldn’t happen without christianity, i do suggest hitting some books one more time (or many more times). (i do think homophobia is very traceable though).
cause i’m more christian than they are, literally same claim they make
So, you do not have any more basis for your claims than they do? Considering that, and the fact that they outnumber you by a lot, it seems that they are better candidates for being classified as actual christians.
If your faith consists of hating people, as it’s the lowest form of prayer to hope for misfortune of your enemies, i do think you are full of shit
In that case, christians can be divided into being full of shit and ones who base their beliefs on the claims of the ones who are full of shit but with a few deviations.
if you think colonialism, slavery or genocide wouldn’t happen without christianity
I don’t, but christians and their organisations have been consistent supporters of such. The rest still base their beliefs entirely on the say-so of those (with, again, some deviations).
I think religion is good.
Sorry I guess, but i’ve run the gamut in my life. I used to be a little edgelord preteen that delighted in shitting on belief. i had an earnest christian phase. i had a heresy and occult phase. i’m still in an “academic study of these matters is cool as hell” phase - I think if you’re overly reductive, you get it in your head to only measure what religion does on a socio-political level, and this is a fucking trap. Anything tied to power structures can and will be abused, but that doesn’t make these places the sole determiner of worth and value for anything, but for religion it’s especially busted.
Religion and spirituality are like, really important elements of the human psyche. I can’t tell you why that is, but I can tell you that even in instances of non-belief in an individual, the overwhelming tendency is that other structures replace it and act as a surrogate - something in our mind needs whatever religion provides. It can get it elsewhere of course, i can think of some large social projects that tried to redirect that impulse towards common, human-centered goals and sometimes, for some people, it works, but it’s at least clear to me that being reductive about this and treating it as problematic or bad or somehow more trouble than it’s worth, is coming from a place of disinterest and lack of understanding.
Religion is the opiate of the masses. Perhaps in a less sick and damaged world their would be no need for such a medication to ease their suffering. Maybe we’d already be living in that world if they’d stop waiting for the afterlife and actually care about the world around them for once.
still stems from the horrendous old testament
No investigation, no right to speak.
I have investigated the old testament. god supports horrendous things.
What I meant was that the whole point of Jesus and the new Covenant was to fulfill the old one and liberate humanity with a new law of love.
p.s. I don’t know if it’s super appropriate for me to participate in this thread though, I don’t want to take a space away from people who have been victimized by religious bigotry from venting about that or voicing valid concerns. There’s a time and a place to set the record straight wrt theology, I appreciate that it might not be this one.
over correcting into enthusiastic support for religion can also be problematic.
I don’t generally see this happen around here, I feel hexbear users have pretty even-keeled views on religion as a whole, barring those with religious trauma who are completely justified in their negative views. I’d certainly never allow outright evangelism anywhere on the site. And as others have said, the christianity comm is barely alive, same with /c/judaism, and /c/islam has been locked forever due to lack of mods. This is not a site that’s enthusiastic about religion.
No, I agree with you. State atheism and a significant reduction in the power of the church is only logical. Religion is extremely reactionary. Look who they support and promote time and time again. Many of them believe Trump was chosen by God.
Basing your laws and values off of a 2000 year old law book is complete nonsense. We don’t look to ancient misconceptions for guidance in any other field. How could people who didn’t even know about the solar system hold the secrets to the universe?
How can anyone here defend the beliefs that: Being gay is an abomination. Abortion is always wrong. Evolution is untrue. Israel belongs to the Jewish people. Etc, etc.
Why is masking there reaction by talking to an imaginary friend and getting his approval acceptable? The worst of them deserve the wall, the rest harsh reeducation.
