Since Wrestlemania there’s been nothing but stories about John Cena winning an amazing 17th title, blah blah blah… It’s a “History making moment”, yadda yadda yadda…
Like…of course he did. It’s the storyline. It’s quite literally “in the script”.
This isn’t an achievement. Why is this in my sports news next to last night’s hockey scores instead of next to an article about who was the bitchiest on the lastest episode of Real Housewives?
I get it. I loved Wrestling growing up. Back when we all WERE pretending it was real; Macho Man, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, etc… But I thought at some point they steered into the whole “entertainment” aspect when most of us grew the hell up and clued into the absurdity of it all.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a load of bots because Netflix spent the GDP of a small country on it.
People are excited about the writting in the show they watch. 90 banillion articles came out about Severence too.
People that are fans then play into the kayfabe, as thats a large part of the point of the show.
Let people enjoy things, they arent harming you by talking about wrestling.
I mean people get excited over TV shows all the time? Doesnt have to be real for people to talk about it and be excited
We’ve regressed into believing a lot of imaginary things are real.
Wrestling is the least of our worries.
Wrestling isn’t Wrestling
I remember liking that video the first time I saw it. If I remember correctly though, the creator of that video had quite a few sexual abuse allegations against him and I wasn’t really into it after that came to light.
I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening me. I’ll forgo referencing Landis from now on. Learn something new everyday…even if the new knowledge is old and awful.
I mean, you see the same kind of thing with scripted television where there’s no kayfabe at all. We recently got the season finale of Daredevil Born Again, and there were all kinds of posts/comments/etc talking about how satisfying/bad ass it was to see Daredevil and Punisher beat down a bunch of cops. We all know it’s scripted fiction, but it’s still fun to watch.
Wrestling is a form of theatre.
Its just the high octane, sensationalized, ridiculous, coked up, american pop culture version of Theatre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvSs3HEz2o excellent video where someone talks about why Wrestling got popular
Wrestling Isn’t Sports. But it also isn’t fake. Not entirely. the outcomes are usually scripted, and theres a card they are usually following (Sometimes, they aren’t. Whether its a botch, a shoot, etc) (botch means a mistake, a shoot means someone’s not acting, and they’re throwing real punches)
but the acrobatics and "stunts’ people are doing, are very real. an incredible amount of effort and skill is needed to have the physical ability and timing to make the stuff look real for the kids and cameras
thats why its called sports entertainment,
I think OP is specifically asking why Pro Wrestling is being treated like it’s real in some sports publications.
Just to further your point. It’s like Cirque du Soleil, scripted, but they are really doing those moves.
Makes me wonder how ‘real’ roman gladiators were.
Living in the western world - I hear nothing about Wrestling…
Yeah, I think this says more about OP’s information bubble.
Same. US defaultism strikes again. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone talk about wrestling in my life
Nah, at least this once it’s definitely not a US defaultism thing.
As an American, this is the first time I’ve thought about pro wrestling in a very very long time.
I live in the US and also never hear about wrestling.
it’s not a point of US defaultism, it’s that nobody in our respective social circles can give a shit about wrestling lol
Wrestling has a significant presence in Central America, Japan, and Europe. Presumably other regions as well but I really don’t follow the sport so my experience is all second-hand.
Where in Europe?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_in_the_United_Kingdom
Quick little history of the last century in the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_promotions_in_Europe
Active circuits are pretty much everywhere.
That’s not significant at all. The viership is practically non existent. I’ve lived in 3 inches different countries in Europe plus the US. Not once have I’ve seen wrestling make the news anywhere in Europe. It’s extremely fringe.
Most sports never make the news. Even in the US it’s pretty fringe except for the wrestlers who transition to Hollywood, like John Cena or Dave Bautista. Though it had a heyday from the Hulk Hogan era through Stone Cold and The Rock when people were much more aware, generally. I don’t know anyone who watches but I know a bunch of people who used to watch.
Real wrestling yes.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWfeskasuOjBfZ5WxG66bvBeI8XQtNHA5
Sports theater as well.
God that’s cringe.
No, we know the outcome’s predetermined. Last year’s Wrestlemania was basically written six-months ahead of time.
It’s still fun to watch though, and the athletes do some amazing shit.
I wouldn’t call them athletes if their skill isn’t what determines the outcome. Performers certainly like cirque du Soleil.
I wanted to be a pro wrestler in my teens, I have no around with local wrestlers and did ring crew work from time to time when a show was local. Eventually they started giving me some training and let me tell you it takes a lot of athletic ability to make those moves look good without injuring the other person.
Just because the outcome is predetermined doesn’t mean the lead up to the outcome isn’t an athletic competition. They are competing in that ring, it’s just that they are competing for a chance at a belt and earning the belt is the equivalent of a promotion in the workplace. Champions get better pay and more opportunities.
Freestyle skiing, snowboarding, skating, bmx, motocross, mountain bike etc says you’re wrong.
While it’s possible to compete in events for most or all of those things competition is only a tiny part of it.
Why not? What definition of ‘athlete’ are you even using? Did you just decide this?
athlete Athletes compete or strive against others to attain a goal, TV wrestlers perform, or enact a feat before an audience.
You could say there goal is to perform for that audience, as a team….of athletes.
LOL
Go try to do moonsault off a steel cage without breaking your neck and then you can judge.
Still not an athlete.
wwe have to labe them as sports performers, so they arnt subject to any regulatory issues, like with roids and standards. we know alot of the wrestlers was on PEDS, rock and cena was the most obvious.
It’s a soap opera for men. Sure the storyline is made up, but people still like being entertained.
Note, I am assuming the match was good. I haven’t watch wrestling in a while, but some of those old matches are still fun to watch.
I’ve heard the soap opera comparison before. But I think “circus” is technically more accurate. You’ve got these very obvious professional athletes performing a well-rehearsed routine that is physically demanding and dramatically delivered.
Like, would you call a tightrope walker or a trapeze artist “fake”? If a dozen clowns pile out of a car and start performing back flips and somersaults and climbing into human pyramids and spraying one another with seltzer bottles, would you dismiss it as an obviously scripted display?
Would you go to a Harlem Globetrotters game and complain when they pull out a springboard and start doing stunt slam dunks?
It’s a show! It doesn’t need to be competitive in order to be fun.
Yeah from a physical aspect yes you are correct but wrestling has the storylines that the circus doesn’t. The Jerry springer like drama and feuds that people really get invested in with the same level of chair throwing.
wrestling has the storylines that the circus doesn’t
Every Cirque-du-Soleil I’ve been to has had a storyline.
The Jerry Springer like drama and feuds that people really get invested in with the same level of chair throwing.
There’s a ton of hype that builds up around the actual events, in no small part because the events themselves are physically exhausting and the producers need to fill hours of time with minutes of match.
But we see the exact same kind of shit during the Olympics. Two talking heads reading out an athlete’s life story for half an hour, right before you get to see a three minute floor routine or a sixteen second bobsled run.
Would you go to a Harlem Globetrotters game and complain when they pull out a springboard and start doing stunt slam dunks?
I did, so Ethan “Bubblegum” Tate made fun of me, I became verbally abusive, and then they asked me to leave.
Honestly a reasonable reaction from Bubblegum. Why go to a Globetrotters game and then complain about them doing Globetrotters stuff?
Would you watch a documentary and then complain about a silky British voiceover? Or a soap opera and complain about the hazy look of it? Or a musical when you can see the actor scurrying away after “dying” (hint, they don’t actually die)
Circus comparison is good but I prefer drag race. It’s a bunch of (generally) men in costumes and make up performing very well-practiced routines for the sole purpose of entertainment, with one rigged winner at the end.
Maybe wrestling fans wouldn’t like that comparison as much.
I’ve never seen ‘drag race’ used in this context, and I was wondering how you were about to compare drag racing (like with cars) with wrestling.
Lol yeah sorry I should’ve said drag queen competitions. What you described happens to me all the time in reverse when people talk about car drag racing. I watch too much RuPaul.
The outcome of the match is predetermined while the participants pretend that it isn’t. That is why there are constant arguments about whether or not it’s “fake”.
The outcome of the match is predetermined while the participants pretend that it isn’t.
The adventure is in the journey, not the destination. I don’t care whether you win or you lose when I came to see two roided out giants do backflip kicks into one another’s torsos while their friends spray silly string to distract the combatants from the sidelines.
That is why there are constant arguments about whether or not it’s “fake”.
There is absolutely no question that the outcome of the matches is predetermined, in the same way that there is absolutely no doubt that the Rat King is going to get killed by the Nutcracker at the ballet. But both wrestling and ballet are athletic endeavors.
I agree that most of them are athletic, but they simply aren’t competing in an athletic competition.
I think your comparison to the Globetrotters is on point. In the ballet and other examples, the difference to me is that they’re not pretending to be in a ballet competition while dancing the ballet.
There’s no doubt that what most wrestlers do requires skill, talent, and athleticism but it’s “fake” in that what you’re watching isn’t an authentic athletic competition despite the people involved pretending that it is.
In the ballet and other examples, the difference to me is that they’re not pretending to be in a ballet competition while dancing the ballet.
In the Nutcracker, at least, they’re pretending to fence, in a choreographed dance. A first-time naive viewer who came out of the show offended when they discover skill at fencing has nothing to do with whether the dancers playing the Nutcracker or the Rat King wins would sound silly.
I do think that the kayfabe is what sets wrestling apart from more traditional performance art. The carnival-barker lying-to-your-face aspect of the performance is what makes it feel extra circus-y. But when you accept that the kayfabe is just part of the performance, you stop feeling offended by it and start recognizing degrees of commitment to the bit as part of the artform.
In the Nutcracker, at least, they’re pretending to fence, in a choreographed dance.
And no one writes stories about who won the fencing match.
Wrestling takes things to a ridiculous level compared to all other performances.
And no one writes stories about who won the fencing match.
Because it’s the same story that’s been running for the last century. Pro-Wrestling shows are just stories you haven’t seen before. And reviews of new performances are written about regularly.
Wrestling takes things to a ridiculous level
Sure. The exaggeration and the very deliberate kayfabe is a big part of the appeal. But then you see that in Cosplay and at the Renaissance Faire all the time. Running onto the tournament grounds and shouting “These aren’t real knights! They aren’t really jousting!!” is still considered gauche. And it breezes past the skills you need to ride a horse, maintain a kit, and put on the display without hurting yourself or your partner.
This still doesn’t explain why Cena’s victory is being reported to much hype in the sports sections.
For the same reason any athlete’s performance is heavily promoted in sports media.
These are all just ads. All sports media is fundamentally advertisement.
Because they need to sell papers?
I think you can leave off “for men”
Facts.
Meh, it was okay I suppose.
Cena doesn’t play a heel very well, and it’s kind of shitty that they used crotch shots in both of the WM main events.
What outlets do you follow?
Because this is the first I’m hearing about it.
Counterpoint- all sports are silly. That’s why they are called games.
I don’t dunk on wrestling fans anymore because people are free to enjoy whatever they want. But it’s always been like this. It didn’t change - you did. Personal growth!
I agree to some extent, but there’s an important difference between sport and performance. WWE is categorically separate from say, BJJ. Sure, they both have guys rolling around on the floor, and they’re both kinda silly, but one is a real competition with rules and skill while the other is a predetermined show.
Okay, so as a teenager I was a super nerd and got into swords. I took olympic style fencing lessons first, then got into the ren faire and also did some stage combat. Sadly, I have health problems and I couldn’t keep my knees in place, and had to quit. The difference between those is probably the same difference between WWE style wrestling, and BJJ. One is done with choreography, one is a competition.
They’re both sports. I don’t understand why people think the choreography somehow means it doesn’t have skills or rules? It was the same skillset, different rules. Stage combat was unpadded and used heavier weapons that left more bruises when we fucked up the choreography. They’re different, sure, but the amount of overlap is underappreciated.
there’s an important difference between sport and performance
Sure. Namely, that sports tend to be “competitive” while performances tend to be entirely about spectacle. But to claim that Simone Biles is a Real Athlete while Britt Baker isn’t, because one of them does her leaps and tumbles and flexibility stunts at Olympic sanctioned events and the other does it during AEW matches… you’re really ignoring the substance for the pastiche.
What one might argue “ruins” wrestling is all the phoney accolades various performers receive. Claiming you’re “The Best Wrestler” in a staged performance is meaningless, because its clearly a scripted fight. At the same time, very few people showing up to a nationally televised event are anything less than exceptional in athletic talent. And the exceptions are primarily there for their exceptional comedic talents.
I don’t think all sports need to be contests, that’s just the most common association people have. Surfing and rock-climbing are still sports even if you never enter a competition.
There’s definitely a grey area. “Sports” is a spectrum from competitive team based games, to any recreational activity that requires athleticism.
In this case my point is that wrestling presents itself as a competitive sport, while that aspect of it is fake.
not disagreeing with you - I find performative “wrestle drama” absolutely, mind numbingly pointless. my preference is to participate in (and ocassionally watch) unscripted combat sport.
however… I have trained competitive martial arts for decades (muay thai, bjj, others) and most of these “wrestling” participants are pretty skilled athletes. it takes training to turn combinations of techniques designed to injure into something reasonably harmless. there is a pretty fine line separating sparring from a fight.
I know you know this, but its still useful to remember that these players are actors as well as athletes and that can obviously be pretty inviting for a lot of viewers.
Yes that’s the reality. I was just rage baiting meatheads for fun. Tee-hee. Nobody’s perfect.
Not all sports are games, if you cant quickly grab some friends and head out to play it, its not a game.
All sports are games. Not all athletic competitions are sports.
What athletic competition would not be a game if all sports are games? I mean, honestly, what is the difference you see between “sport” and “athletic competition”?
You can extend or contract “game” as much as you want, but I can’t think of a definition of game that would encompass all sports but not all athletic competitions (if there really is a difference).
Track and field events are not games.
Gymnastics or any kind of event involving a choreographed routine. Diving. Really any kind of race.
I don’t consider all athletic competitions to be sports.
That’s not the definition of a game, though.
Loads of games need co-ordinated access to specific resources, from chess to the 2001 release of Halo. Doesn’t mean they’re not games.
The line between games and sports is entirely arbitrary, and changes from person to person.
Yes I know. Real sports have “motor” in front of them. lol
If your game doesn’t involve traveling above 100mph and pulling more than 2g it’s not a sport 😤
WWE is a special beast. They embraced The Internet a lot earlier than most media and their social media and astro turfing game is on point. It is why you’ll hear that every single wrestler on the planet’s life goal is to be in the WWE Hall of Fame ™ and why Roman “The Rock’s Cousin Who Was Such A Charisma Void That All His Lines In Hobbes And Shaw were cut” Reigns and whoever the hell is the greatest story ever told on television ™ and so forth.
Spend a bit of time discussing wrestling and you rapidly realize you are talking to a “bot” in that different statements trigger the exact same response from different people.
So it is less that The Fans think that cena taking time out of his busy schedule of caping for a rapist sex trafficker was truly amazing and more that people on twitter and PR folk on The Subreddit told them to think that and they are repeating it.
As for the other aspect:
Why is this in my sports news next to last night’s hockey scores instead of next to an article about who was the bitchiest on the lastest episode of Real Housewives?
Because wrestling is “event television” in a way that only sports really is anymore. Andor is one of the greatest shows of all time but, unless you are doing a Reaction podcast, it doesn’t matter if you watch that episode from Season 2 tonight or tomorrow or a week from now. Wrestling and sports? People DO still want to watch that “live” because they are afraid someone will spoil the score of the Bulls game (in large part because we grew up with sitcoms where that was the joke). So, in that regard, it makes more sense to cover it with sports rather than to cut into a movie review with how taylor swift’s boyfriend caught a ball real good.
Which… gets to the last point that is not WWE specific. A lot of people don’t have the time or money to watch it live. This mostly goes back to when PPVs were 50-90 bucks and when all weekly shows were on TV that a lot of “cord cutters” didn’t have. But it also just speaks to the general lack of an attention span. A LOT of the Internet Wrestling Community (IWC)… don’t actually watch wrestling. They follow live threads or watch clips and then they wait for Dave “It’s cool, he just didn’t like her tits” Meltzer to give them a star rating.
It has become a lot more prevalent in the AEW era where we have “something else” on weekly TV (no. TNA didn’t count. I loved TNA but that shit was the #4 promotion even when there were only two on TV in the US) and the “AEW style” is still heavily informed by The Indies and New Japan where people try to tell a self contained story in every match rather than relying on six months of promos on TV. You will RAPIDLY notice that the IWC will barely mention character work that is not part of a clip released by the company or one that was so good that wrestling twitter clipped it themselves. A live thread might lose their shit over how much rotation a tall lady got on a powerbomb spot and then immediately “forget it” because wrestling twitter didn’t care and the company didn’t bother to release a clip of it.
Yeah, that’s kinda silly. I can see an argument that WWE wrestlers are athletes, no problems there. But they don’t actually perform in any sort of athletic competition, which makes thinking of it as a “sport” a little weird. If WWE is a sport, then so is ballet.
Roberto Bolle wins unprecedented 17th championship against King Mouse in the Nutcracker cage match!
Wrestling and the media surrounding it will always be written/performed as though it is real. There were just as many adults that knew it was fake when we were kids that didn’t. It’s santa clause and easter bunny style culture. Once you are disillusioned, if you want to continue being involved, you join in on the act.
