the point is you, being a liberal, are supporting imperial bullshit by framing draft dodging as a bad thing, attacking Trump as a draft dodger reinforces “draft dodging bad” dummy
I think it’s unacceptable to serve in an imperialist military against an actually, existing socialist country. You either desert, dodge, or frag. If you don’t do any of those things, you are contributing towards reaction.
We hanged people at Nuremberg who were “just following orders.” Vietnam should have been no different, given what the US did to those people.
But have you considered that the draft is something that the wealthy inflict upon the working class…knowing that they can simply buy their way out of it?
And right now, you’re the one defending a literal fascist, for exercising that privilege like he’s some kind of “conscientious objector”?
do you think they would approve of the same wealthy man murdering poor rice farmers because it would be naughty to get out of it? Because that’s the position you’re defending. Trump’s hypocrisy is apparently worse than murdering poor people on the other side of the world. But hey I guess they aren’t American so it doesn’t count, huh?
Also, around 0.6% of draft dodgers went to prison. The conscripts who went didn’t go because they couldn’t get out of it. They went because they were propagandised to think that America is good. Even if it actually were common for poor people to be imprisoned for resisting service that would still be no excuse for flying to the other side of the world to murder poor rice farmers.
But again, they’re not American, so they don’t really count. All of your pathetic whining about hypocrisy only adds up to - the hypocrisy of one rich dickhead is more important than the lives of Vietnamese people. And that’s disgusting.
Socialism had been a major part of my family going back to WW2, when my grandfather fought Nazis in Norway. He raised my father on Socialist principles, and my father raised me on them.
Okay, and what motivation do you see for fighting in the Vietnam war do you think he had that is defensible and somehow better than dodging the draft? Even if this ridiculous, anti-materialist take were true it would STILL be aggressively fucking stupid.
If you believe that abortion is murder, are you right to kill doctors that perform abortions? What about maiming them with intent to prevent them from working, or firebombing their clinics? You are, after all, motivated to stop murders.
thank you for gracing us with your wisdom oh learned one. I see now that intentions are the fundamental determiner of ethical action. truly deontology and consequentialism are philosophies of the damned!
in all seriousness please read a book on moral philosophy. there’s so much more!
Rich failsons tended to be given safe and cushy posts, and even beyond that most American soldiers in Vietnam survived. Literally no one should join the US military ever. It is always a worse thing to do than not doing it is.
Hypocrisy literally does not matter, GOP hogs do not have shame or moral beliefs, they do not have principles, they are literally just ravening demons wearing human skin who subsist on suffering and death and who do not perceive material reality or remember what they had for breakfast this morning. You’re not owning them by accusing them of at one point doing the less bad thing when moral consistency would suggest they should have done the more evil thing which they advocate for, because they don’t care, literally no one cares.
I don’t think you understand how “the draft” worked. You make it sound like folks had a choice.
Not everyone was rich enough to buy themselves a pass. So it was either go to jail, or skip the country…which was also a luxury not everyone could afford.
Shaming soldiers for being conscripted into a war none of them wanted to be in, is also not the own you think it is. Having the privilege of buying a pass, when most people don’t have that option, is nothing to celebrate.
Ah, so now it’s about which option is more fun, not more moral? And in your opinion, the option to go murder a bunch of random people in Vietnam is the more fun, and therefor more correct option?
Of course they had a choice. They could choose to become violent enforcers of the empire’s will, or suffer state violence a thousand times milder than what they were being asked to commit. It’s not like they were being black bagged and dragged to the front to be thrown into a meatgrinder without training or equipment, like Ukraine has been doing. They were told “go and murder for our vanity, for our dominion over all things, or sit in this box for a few years” and they chose to go do violence and bring horror and death to innocent people on the other side of the world instead of sitting in a cage for a few years.
Draft dodging isn’t as hard as you think it is. Just have kids, go to grad school, join the National Guard (you will be in the military, but you won’t be deployed or really do anything), drink a bottle of soy sauce right before your medical, say you’re gay, make some track marks or sh scars, get fat, join the clergy, work in the mines, work in a defense plant, or just listen to Phil Ochs.
If we’re talking about probabilities here, his McDonald’s based diet probably should have killed him already but he seems to be still kicking somehow 🙄
How about in the context of Trump doing it so that he could spend his time banging more chicks?
sex sounds like a less genocidal activity than going to vietnam but idk who can really say
In the context of deciding not to go overseas to murder people fighting a war of national liberation.
Do you honestly believe that was his motivation?
Who cares? The fact that he didn’t go overseas to murder people is still good.
Sure he could have died, which would also be good, but is that worth the death and destruction he would have caused?
the point is you, being a liberal, are supporting imperial bullshit by framing draft dodging as a bad thing, attacking Trump as a draft dodger reinforces “draft dodging bad” dummy
As a 3rd generation socialist, I take offense to that.
As an actual socialist, I take offense to your libshit takes.
So, you think it’s acceptable for wealthy people to be allowed to avoid the obligations placed on poorer folks, simply because they were born rich?
That is a very interesting take…for an “actual socialist”.
I think it’s unacceptable to serve in an imperialist military against an actually, existing socialist country. You either desert, dodge, or frag. If you don’t do any of those things, you are contributing towards reaction.
We hanged people at Nuremberg who were “just following orders.” Vietnam should have been no different, given what the US did to those people.
Cool.
But have you considered that the draft is something that the wealthy inflict upon the working class…knowing that they can simply buy their way out of it?
And right now, you’re the one defending a literal fascist, for exercising that privilege like he’s some kind of “conscientious objector”?
How does that make sense to you?
Jesus fucking christ your parents and grandparents must be so ashamed of you right now.
Why? Do you think they would approve of a wealthy man bribing a doctor in order to avoid service that a poor man could not?
do you think they would approve of the same wealthy man murdering poor rice farmers because it would be naughty to get out of it? Because that’s the position you’re defending. Trump’s hypocrisy is apparently worse than murdering poor people on the other side of the world. But hey I guess they aren’t American so it doesn’t count, huh?
Also, around 0.6% of draft dodgers went to prison. The conscripts who went didn’t go because they couldn’t get out of it. They went because they were propagandised to think that America is good. Even if it actually were common for poor people to be imprisoned for resisting service that would still be no excuse for flying to the other side of the world to murder poor rice farmers.
But again, they’re not American, so they don’t really count. All of your pathetic whining about hypocrisy only adds up to - the hypocrisy of one rich dickhead is more important than the lives of Vietnamese people. And that’s disgusting.
Socialism is not inherited
That would make a hilarious quote for the hexbear header btw
Socialism had been a major part of my family going back to WW2, when my grandfather fought Nazis in Norway. He raised my father on Socialist principles, and my father raised me on them.
What else would you call that?
Motivation doesn’t matter if he made the right decision.
Motivation is what defines whether or not the decision was “right”.
This is your brain on idealism.
If I steal a baby’s lollipop but I have goodwill in my heart then I’m actually doing a kind thing
That baby was an ORANGE CHEETO! Which makes it ok.
Okay, and what motivation do you see for fighting in the Vietnam war do you think he had that is defensible and somehow better than dodging the draft? Even if this ridiculous, anti-materialist take were true it would STILL be aggressively fucking stupid.
If you believe that abortion is murder, are you right to kill doctors that perform abortions? What about maiming them with intent to prevent them from working, or firebombing their clinics? You are, after all, motivated to stop murders.
thank you for gracing us with your wisdom oh learned one. I see now that intentions are the fundamental determiner of ethical action. truly deontology and consequentialism are philosophies of the damned!
in all seriousness please read a book on moral philosophy. there’s so much more!
You are my absolute favorite lib, please come back again and teach us more!
i don’t really care why Trump dodged the draft, but it’s better he did that than drop agent orange over Vietnam
It’s far more likely that he would have died there, if he had gone.
Rich failsons tended to be given safe and cushy posts, and even beyond that most American soldiers in Vietnam survived. Literally no one should join the US military ever. It is always a worse thing to do than not doing it is.
Hypocrisy literally does not matter, GOP hogs do not have shame or moral beliefs, they do not have principles, they are literally just ravening demons wearing human skin who subsist on suffering and death and who do not perceive material reality or remember what they had for breakfast this morning. You’re not owning them by accusing them of at one point doing the less bad thing when moral consistency would suggest they should have done the more evil thing which they advocate for, because they don’t care, literally no one cares.
I don’t think you understand how “the draft” worked. You make it sound like folks had a choice.
Not everyone was rich enough to buy themselves a pass. So it was either go to jail, or skip the country…which was also a luxury not everyone could afford.
Shaming soldiers for being conscripted into a war none of them wanted to be in, is also not the own you think it is. Having the privilege of buying a pass, when most people don’t have that option, is nothing to celebrate.
Maybe I’m built different but I would simply go to jail rather than participate in a genocide.
If you think that potential consequences (a stint in jail) is worse than actively murdering people than you are simply selfish.
Also, of the over half a million draft offenders, only 3000 were ever sent to jail for it.
Removed by mod
i mean its either war under an imperial flag or war under a gang’s banner. what’s the difference? At least in prison you aren’t helping empire.
Ah, so now it’s about which option is more fun, not more moral? And in your opinion, the option to go murder a bunch of random people in Vietnam is the more fun, and therefor more correct option?
Is this a prison SA reference? Fuck off with that shit.
Of course they had a choice. They could choose to become violent enforcers of the empire’s will, or suffer state violence a thousand times milder than what they were being asked to commit. It’s not like they were being black bagged and dragged to the front to be thrown into a meatgrinder without training or equipment, like Ukraine has been doing. They were told “go and murder for our vanity, for our dominion over all things, or sit in this box for a few years” and they chose to go do violence and bring horror and death to innocent people on the other side of the world instead of sitting in a cage for a few years.
Lol! So, you think prison is “mild”? Wow.
They said it’s 1000x milder than having your village genocided.
Relative to being on the receiving end of Agent Orange or American helicopters
That’s what you took away.
Draft dodging isn’t as hard as you think it is. Just have kids, go to grad school, join the National Guard (you will be in the military, but you won’t be deployed or really do anything), drink a bottle of soy sauce right before your medical, say you’re gay, make some track marks or sh scars, get fat, join the clergy, work in the mines, work in a defense plant, or just listen to Phil Ochs.
if you choose to kill foreigners instead of taking 2 years in prison then you’re either a piece of shit or a coward
fuck the yankee wehrmacht
If we’re talking about probabilities here, his McDonald’s based diet probably should have killed him already but he seems to be still kicking somehow 🙄
We have to go back in time to stop the Supersize Me movie
His insides have been pickled by Big Mac sauce