Archive article: https://archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
There is no both siding this, the Zionists are genocidal and there are no good zionists. This should be shocking to nobody. Im Jewish and ill say this as many times as I need to
ANTIZIONISM IS NOT ANTISEMITISM
When this voluntary migration plan succeeds and the world becomes a beautiful terrorism free utopia, you antizionists are going to look pretty stupid.
Edit: Wait!!! Are you about to downvote me because you’re a zionist, an antizionist who doesn’t understand irony, or something else? I can’t not know!
Ok reactionary
You build a state out of colonialism, you get a state of colonialists.
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I support expelling israelis.
It’s an oversimplification, but it’s like an older brother and a younger brother sharing a room. They hate each other. They’re always messing with each other’s stuff. The older brother knows better, but he’s angry and tends to be abusive. The younger brother knows he shouldn’t pick a fight, but can’t help himself. They’ve both been fighting so long that each feels justified in hurting the other.
Who’s at fault is the wrong question. Is it the 7 year old? He’s 7. Is it the 12 year old? He’s a kid too, just bigger and stronger. Both lack the maturity and empathy to be in charge and have the run of things. They’ve both proven they’re entirely incapable of being fair or kind to each other.
It’s the parents’ fault for letting it happen. Or in this case, enabling both kids and giving them tips and tricks for how to fight better.
We can’t expects Israel or Palestine to be the adults in the room. They aren’t. They can’t. We can’t expect ourselves to be the adults in the room. We’re watching these kids beat themselves bloody for our amusement.
Until someone puts their foot down and says enough is enough, nothing will change, but the person who says that and lays down their weapons probably gets killed. So this won’t end until one side exterminates the other.
more like a homeless guy coming into a child a house, kicking the family into the basement, feeding them scraps, and when he wants to make a game room in the basement coming down to torture/kill them all.
sometimes the starving family downstairs complain, and in response, he just kills a random family member, you know, seems fair.
and all the neighbours side when the psycho invader, and blame the family for complaining and not thinking about the poor guy who regularly tortures them. because he’s a human too.
This is the bit that I’ve had a hard time with. And, to put it in less snide allegorical terms: Israel is in many ways the “invader”. They took land, took homes, that weren’t theirs. That invasion has been justified through massive harm to their people, and the need for a “safe space” they can call their own. But while that’s the in-person justification by individuals, the backroom justification used to ship the weapons is achieving a “Western presence” in the middle east.
Something the Jewish community might not get is: They’re not the only group that’s been targeted for hate throughout history. The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews. We don’t get to make a “Transgender state”, or a “Black American state”, and especially not displace others for that. In some ways the world needs to accept that, whether by 10 miles or 100, we’ll still be neighbors on this planet and not totally unreachable. Set that distance, and it means you only get boiling points like 9/11 rather than shots fired in a neighborhood.
a trans state would be dope.
but make sure to differentiate the Jewish community and the zionists/Israel community.
although a lot of Jews support Israel. lots are speaking against it, some of the loudest anti zionists Voices are Jewish, from Chomsky, Finkelstein, JVP, btselem…
no one has the right to an ethnostate
the sad reality is that lots of refugees fleed to Palestine, but instead of being refugees, they wanted to be colonizers.
a trans state would be dope.
Can we just kick everyone out of Wyoming and make Wyoming the trans state?
not sure why Wyoming, but go ahead
Because Wyoming not?
Eh, it’s the least populace US state. Plus, who doesn’t like mountains?
The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews
🤨🤔
Split semantics on exact wording if you’d like. A better word might be “solely”. The Nazi party collected anyone of a variety of demographics they didn’t like, including foreigners, LGBT, physically/mentally disabled, scholars, etc.
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This an incredibly fucking stupid post. You’re so off base it would be funny if there wasn’t an ongoing genocide happening while you’re here brushing off Isreals warcrimes with a moronic analogy.
This is gross. Israel invaded and occupied Palestine. The people of Gaza were driven there by ethnic cleansing, a wall was built around them, and they have been starved of food, water, and medicine for years before fighting back.
Israel wants to finish cleansing the land of Palestinians. Palestinians want to end the state of Israel and return to their homes. Only one of these requires exterminating the other side.
Palestinians and Israelis aren’t brothers though. One is indigenous fighting for his land and the other is a settler on an apocalyptic colonizing mission because he claims God gave it to him 2500 years ago.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Nah this is like if you are the parent of an adult child. They have a rough time. They get burned by a series of landlords who screw them over, take advantage of them, and seriously harm their well being. For whatever reason, they decide that instead of renting, their best option is to go squat in their childhood home. It was sold years ago and currently occupied, but they decided they’re just going to force their way in at gunpoint, take over part of the house, and slowly take over more and more of it. You think this is a great idea, and you gladly provide them with weapons and ammo so they can occupy their childhood home.
100%
except there’s a bit of tragedy
Palestinians are in large part the Jews who stayed there and later converted.
so it’s more like your childhood home is housing your brother and his family. you take over it at gunpoint and act like they never existed
Your comment tldr: “You guys don’t get it; they’re both bad”
and then everyone clapped for you. /s
Eat shit.
It’s spooky how accurate this analogy is
It’s not accurate in the slightest.
It’s a genuinely disgusting mischaracterization of violent dispossession and genocide as some kind of sibling rivalry.
This is not an argument between family! Palestinian people are being maimed, tortured, starved, and killed! They have been subjected to relentless oppression, occupation, and brutality under an internationally recognized system of apartheid for decades. The perpetrators of these heinous crimes do not need a stern talking to from a parent, they need to be brought to justice.
What is happening now is the culmination of years of this sort of dismissive patronizing bullshit framing of some of the most despicable things humans can do to others. The genocidal intent motivating these acts is spoken openly and plainly by zionist officials and media, and all foreign backers have made it abundantly clear that they will do their part to try to sanitize and legitimize these horrific crimes.
A reckoning will come, and absolutely no one who sided with israel, in virtually any capacity, will be able to claim ignorance nor innocence. Every one will be remembered for their role in supporting these sadistic genocidal child murderers.
I mean if your only source of information on this conflict Al Jazeera then maybe, but if you actually look through the history of this region you would quickly understand that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of context.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
The point is that there is a lot that led us to this point, and it’s neither accurate or helpful to boil to replace history with a narrative. We can have an honest discussion about the current situation where we can agree to condemn the atrocities taking place right now, agree that the people responsible should be brought to justice, while also acknowledging the historical reality. From that point of view, I see this analogy as oversimplified, but still accurate tug of war between the two where neither wants to let go of the rope until the other completely loses.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else. The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.
And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else.
We can condemn the Israeli government’s reprehensible actions without using historical revisionism to drive narratives. Also history matters, how else are we supposed to understand why things are the way they if we don’t even bother understand what led up to them in an objective manner?
The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.
That’s some colossal bullshit. It’s the other way around. The Nazis were notorious for historical revisionism and crafting propaganda narratives that misrepresented history and boiled down all the complexity and nuance to just “Jews bad”. That’s why they blamed Jews for everything. If the Nazis understood history, then they would’ve known that their decisions would’ve led to their demise. You don’t seem to understand that no cause is noble enough to justify dishonest representations of reality. This applies to both Israel and Palestine.
You don’t need Aljazeera to know the truth, just read what Zionist wrote and said themselves. The following is a quote by Jabotinsky:
“[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! … Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization.”
As quoted by Lenni Brenner, in The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir (1984), where the quotation is cited as being from “The Iron Law”
There’s more quotes by other Zionists that make no doubt that Israelis are the aggressors and Palestinians are the victims. There’s no two sides to colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
Lenni Brenner (born 1937), formerly known as Leonard Glaser or Lenny Glaser,[a] is an American Trotskyist writer. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights movement activist and vocal opponent of the Vietnam War. Since the 1980s, his activism has focused on anti-Zionism. He has published widely on the history of Zionism, in particular asserting that the movement collaborated with the Nazis.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner
Ze’ev Jabotinsky[a][b] MBE (born Vladimir Yevgenyevich Zhabotinsky;[c] 17 October 1880[1] – 3 August 1940)[4] was a Russian-born[d] author, poet, orator, soldier, and founder of the Revisionist Zionist movement and the Jewish Self-Defense Organization in Odessa.
With Joseph Trumpeldor, he co-founded the Jewish Legion of the British Army in World War I.[10] Later he established several Jewish organizations, including the paramilitary group Betar in Latvia, the youth movement Hatzohar and the militant organization Irgun in Mandatory Palestine.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Early_life
Yeah, I don’t care what some activist who has clear biases wrote about some other activist who also has clear biases but in the other direction . We’re talking about isn’t about ideology, but how the actual history unfolded, what events ended up taking place, and how those events lead us to today. My point is that the actual history that took place is beyond of the scope of ideological framing. The reality is more complex then you give it credit.
Would you rather read it from a Zionist? How do you feel about the first Israeli prime minister?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
One more by the same person:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
And fuck him, all I am saying is that the history that led up today is more complex than you people are making it out to be. From Israel’s foundation until today, there is a lot that happened that wasn’t foreseen by this guy or anybody. It’s like how the US was founded similar principles but ended up being something that’s vastly different from it’s founders imagined, the same goes for other places like Turkey or New Zealand or Brazil or even Palestine. You can’t boil down one of the world’s oldest regions with the richest history during one it’s most turbulent times to a narrative made by western activists who boil down everything to “this side good that side bad lol”, that’s ignorance.
The ridiculous thing is that by acknowledging you have no idea how foundational Jabotinsky was to the genesis of the state of israel, you’ve revealed how little of the history you actually know and understand.
There is a direct line from Jabotinsky and Irgun to Menachem Begin, a former prime minister who was a member of Irgun and who later founded Herut, which eventually transformed into Likud, which is literally the current ruling party of the state with Netanyahu at its helm.
These are not fringe figures, revisionist zionism has been the dominant tendency for decades by this point, though it has intensified and become even more vicious and genocidal as the war on terror gave them ample cover and support for their brutality.
You insist it is complicated but clearly have no idea how uncomplicated it really is. The first zionist congress was in 1897, and the zionist occupation of Palestine began shortly after. Colonization started at a trickle but ramped up during the british mandate period. By the time israel declared independence, it had already been engaging in ethnic cleansing campaigns and massacres for years.
Do you not understand that israelis today very literally live in stolen homes, and are in the process of actively stealing and demolishing homes throughout the entire region? Every week more people have their homes and crops taken or destroyed by settlers, settlers who poison their livestock and take chainsaws to olive groves that have existed for centuries. Settlers who routinely attack and terrorize Palestinians under the watchful eyes of the occupation forces, who will step in to detain or murder Palestinians that resist in any capacity. Settler who have planted millions of european trees over the ruins of Palestinian villages to try to cover their crimes.
It has never not been a settler colonial project in service of creating an ethnostate. It has never not been rooted in violent dispossession and ethnic cleansing. There have been figures and groups that sought to soften the brutality, some early on that even had more of a vision of peaceful coexistance with the indigenous population, but that has never been a real manifestation of the zionist project.
While all history has complexity and nuance, it is not so complicated that we can’t see a very clear and consistent aggressor and occupier, alongside resistance to it which has been routinely portrayed as somehow unjustified. If you really think it’s complicated, I’d wager you’ve literally never even attempted to understand the history from the perspective of Palestinians. If you had, you wouldn’t be saying any of this shit. Do yourself a favor and learn so you stop being a part of the problem.
And I’ll say it again, you’re not speaking history, you’re speaking narrative and ideology. You don’t seem to understand that it doesn’t matter what the founding ideology is, what matters is what actually happened. The fact that you think you can boil this conflict down to “good vs bad” shows that your ignorance on the subject. There are a lot of conflicts in history that could be that simple, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a good example, but this is not one of those conflicts.
History is meant to be something that’s factual, because you’re retelling what happened. You’re not supposed to be taking sides and digest information from the perspective of a side, that defeats the whole purpose of being objective.
I’ll give you an example, during the 20th century, around 1 million Jews in the muslim world were forced out from their countries for no other reason than being Jewish. These people didn’t do anything wrong, they had nothing to do with the creation of Israel but they found themselves stripped of their property, communities (some of which are thousands of years old) and were forced to go there as that was the only place that would accept them. These people are as much victims as the victims of the Nakba, except this was even larger in scale… yet people like you don’t even acknowledge it’s existence.
Here’s another example, before the creation of Israel and Palestine, the British Mandate had a population of around 750k in the 1920s, and around 10% of those were Jewish. Those Jews were very religious, as opposed to many zionist Jews that migrated there. These Jews were vocal against the creation of Israel, but they became citizens anyway when Israel was established. Those Jews also happen to be from sects that have consistently had the highest birthrates over the decades, and so their descendants today can trace their roots back for thousands of years having never left the region. These people clearly don’t fit the narrative you are trying to paint, but again, you don’t acknowledge their existence.
Here’s yet another example, the Palestinian national identity formed around in the 1920s and 1930s, around the same time the Israeli national identity formed, and both became official after the 1947 partition plan. Prior to the British Mandate, there was no such thing as a Palestinian nation. The term “Palestine” was a colloquial one that loosely referred to the region that made up the “holy land”. The borders and identity that we associate with Palestine today didn’t exist during the Ottoman period, these are literally British inventions. The region was divided differently and the people there saw themselves differently. The region was filled with Turks, Jews, Christians, Arabs, and bunch of other ethnic and religious groups. They all saw themselves as natives to the region and they primarily identified with their ethnic/religious group first and then as Ottoman second. The same applies to Mamluks before the Ottoman Empire. In this case, the Arabs in the region saw themselves as a part of al bilad al sham (the Levant or greater Syria) which was a part of al ummah al arrabiya (the Arab nation). This is because until the British and the French drew random borders, the Arab world saw itself as a single nation. When people talk about the native nation of Palestine, they have no idea what they’re talking about.
I could keep going, but you get the idea. Like I said, it doesn’t matter how something was intended to happen, what matters was what actually happened. These are all events things that were not foreseen by Zionist philosophers living in god knows where. This is precisely why you can’t develop narratives based on narratives, what you will end up with is a distorted image of reality. I agree with you that what the Israeli government today is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is reprehensible and I agree with you that Zionist philosophers were pro-colonialism, but what I am saying is that only using these two points of the regions history or using a single perspective (especially a biased one) will blind to everything else that happened.
If you would like something to read, a good and free place to start would be this chapter of israeli historian Avi Shlaim’s book “Genocide in Gaza: Israel’s Long War on Palestine”, which is publicly available right here.
Some relevant excerpts about Jabotinsky specifically:
The Zionist mainstream settled on Palestine as the location of this state because of the territory’s resonance in Jewish history and culture. How large should the state be, what should be its character, how could it be realised – such questions provoked heated controversies within the Zionist movement. But almost the full spectrum of Zionist opinion cohered around the essential goal of establishing a state in Palestine populated by an overwhelming Jewish demographic majority.
This objective almost inevitably provoked conflict in Palestine between Zionist newcomers and the territory’s existing inhabitants, who were overwhelmingly not Jewish. Palestinian Arabs had no political stake in an endeavour that sought, as the leading Zionist diplomat Chaim Weizmann put it, to render Palestine “as Jewish as England is English”. On the contrary, Palestinians reasonably feared that Zionism could succeed only by dispossessing them of house and homeland. Palestinian opposition to Zionism was therefore as comprehensive as it was consistent. This fundamental clash of interests was spotlighted by Ze’ev Jabotinsky, the ever-candid leader of Revisionist Zionism. In his seminal 1923 article, “The Iron Wall”, Jabotinsky argued that Palestinians would never “voluntarily consent to the realisation of Zionism” because “every native population in the world resists colonists”. This meant “Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population” behind “a power that is independent” of them. Zionism for many Jews was a movement for collective assertion as well as defence through national self-determination. Zionism for Palestinians was a violent colonial imposition.
and later
As Jabotinsky prophesied, expanding Jewish settlement frequently provoked Palestinian opposition as well as resistance. Such opposition was typically overruled by means of discriminatory administration while resistance was suppressed by force. In the Mandate period, the Zionist leadership rejected the democratic principle of majority rule in Palestine so long as Jews comprised a minority, on the correct assumption that an Arab electoral majority would vote to end Jewish immigration and settlement. Between 1936 and 1939, British armed forces along with Jewish paramilitaries viciously crushed a Palestinian national revolt. After the 1948 War, Israel subjected some 90 percent of its Arab citizens to military rule. This emergency regime facilitated the destruction of Arab property and expropriation of Arab land until it was lifted in 1966, by which time the state’s demographic objectives within the Green Line had been substantially accomplished. The pattern repeated in the OPT from the following year. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have lived under Israeli military rule since 1967: three-quarters of Israel’s lifespan as a state. The occupation has been enforced through harsh repression including deportation, arbitrary detention, collective punishment, and unlawful killings. By one estimate, Israel jailed more than 800,000 Palestinians from the OPT between 1967 and 2016; those detained were “routinely subjected to torture”.
The Israeli media has been full of overt calls for and endorsements of just outright genocide for over a year now.
At one point a prime time media show was ‘debating’ just fucking nuking Gaza.
Israeli social media has also been absolutely full of average people with genocidal rhetoric for over a year.
… They just say it in Hebrew, not English… most of the time.
This isn’t suprising to anyone who can use google translate, or read supplied English subtitles/captions.
Reading about this stuff on the Israeli lead news network KAN is… Interesting. When the complete eradication of Gazans is being talked about it’s very blasé and never takes responsibility. For example, this report says Hamas are in fact the ones screwing up Gaza aid efforts, and this one richly claims that the IDF did not kill anyone at an aid site. The IDF alleges that they investigated themselves and found that they weren’t guilty.
The entire last twoish years have have been doubly insane for people like myself, because:
Though I am not Jewish, my cousins all are. They are all secular, American, liberal to lefty Jews by the heritage and ethnicity of their father, and his culture that they maintain.
They are all against the genocide, but according to current, general, right wing sentiment… they either don’t exist or are self hating.
I can only imagine this has all been even more insane for them.
Nearly every pro-Palestine protest on every campus in the US that I’ve read about or seem… has at bare minimum had sizeable numbers of Jewish Americans at it, if not being co-organized by them or headlining them as speakers.
… Meanwhile, I’ve been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I’ve ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist… and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.
Then on my own side of the family, my dad and my uncle just actually are racist anti-semites, making ‘off color jokes’ about Jews being greedy and money obsessed at fucking family gatherings literally in the faces of my cousins and their dad.
Oh well I guess?
Politics evolves to become defined by the hypocrises and contradictions no one is capable of having a rational discussion about.
Meanwhile, I’ve been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I’ve ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist… and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.
The problem is that there is a fine line between stating your observations of a few people and racism.
I’d guess that you haven’t met many actual Israelis…… certainly not enough to be a statistically significant sample. If that’s the case then assuming that your observations apply to the whole population becomes racism.
The problem is that there is a fine line between stating your observations of a few people and racism.
Understanding that the majority of Israelis are fascist and support genocide does not make you rascist.
What you are doing is conflating zionism with Judaism, no different to the Israeli state and their propaganda. Believing that the Israeli government IS judaism is about as rascist as you can get. It’s no different than claiming Iran or the Taliban IS Islam/Arabs, which is unironically what Christian naturalists/racists/fascists believe.
Hey there, bingo, you managed to make roughly the same point as I did but without making it personal, lol.
As a kind of … lol, further, roughly relevant personal example:
My door dash driver the other day was a shorter woman, olive complexion, spoke with a bit of an accent, and had a head covering over her head ao that you couldn’t see her hair, but could see her whole face, along with something sort of resembling a shawl, but quite bright and colorful.
I thanked her for the food, and then, a bit awkardly said… ‘I only know how to ‘thank you’ in Arabic, shyu-ka-ren (sp lol), but I … believe you are probably Persian, how would I say ‘thank you’ in Persian?’
She smiled and was a bit confused: ‘How did you know I am Persian, and not Arab?’
‘Ah, I don’t know the proper names of the different styles of head coverings, but I have seen many pictures, and I think yours is more common in Persia, they tend to be different in Arab countries.’
‘Ah, that’s right! That is how you knew!’ smiled again. ‘Yes, in Arabic it is shyu-ka-ren, in Persian it is tash-ah-kor!’
I then struggle to pronounce it a few times until getting it right, while also semi-short circuiting, reverting back to my ‘Karate training’ and mixing in semi-formal Japanese bows.
… Given where I currently live, I can almost statistically guarantee she’d never encountered a white person she’s delivered DoorDash to here, who even bothered to attempt to tell the difference between an Arab and a Persian, muchless for the purpose of trying to properly thank her in her own language.
All that to say: It is entirely possible to be humble, and attempt to ‘profile’ people… to achieve something pleasant, good, that spreads a smile.
Awkward? Probably.
Racist? … No, more likely quite close to the opposite.
I have not met very many Israelis, that is true…
But the ones that I have met expressed very overtly racist positions that were logically inconsistent in any other scenario: special pleading all the way.
I wasn’t, at the time, back around a decade ago now, telling my white liberal friends ‘all Israelis are racist because I met a few’.
I was telling them ‘this is what this one particular guy said, this is what that other particular guy said, if you applied that same logic you could justify the US extermination of Native Americans, this is concerning to me.’
You are here doing the thing my former friends did: You are assuming I did and said things I did not do nor say, and are pearl clutching… because you’ve head canon’d in your own missing context and additional details.
Notably none of my former white liberal friends bothered to ever ask me about having grown with fairly frequently interacting with… you know, my cousins… and me and them getting along with them well, me learning how to make a latke, me being respectful at hannukah despite me being raised Protestant, me being excited to learn the dradel dradel dradel song as a kid, watching fiddler on the roof together and me liking the songs so much I learned how to sing some of them, and then my actually anti semitic dad telling me to cut that shit out in his house, etc.
Nah they just assumed I was an anti-semite, because they and their families were even more lily white than me and mine, and were projecting their own fears of being viewed as anti-semitic onto me.
It is entirely possible for me to say ‘every Israeli I’ve met has been racist’, that be a true statement, while I can also simultaneously believe that not all Israelis are racist, statistically or by definition… because I am aware of the difference between an anecdote and a statistically valid survey.
…
But did you read the entire article that is this post?
82% of the Israeli public support, at bare minimum, ethnically cleansing all of Gaza.
Thats 4 out of 5.
That is your statistically valid sample.
Turns out my anecdotal experience was not atypical.
…
I’ve only met a few Japanese (as in, born and raised in Japan and ethnically Japanese) people in my life, and they’ve all been skilled martial artists.
This just is true.
Because I met them via participating in Karate for over a decade.
… Does this mean I think all Japanese people are highly skilled martial artists?
No.
Not unless you read that into what I said, despite me not actually saying that, because you head canon’d your own context into the first statement.
But the ones that I have met expressed very overtly racist positions that were logically inconsistent in any other scenario: special pleading all the way.
I wasn’t, at the time, back around a decade ago now, telling my white liberal friends ‘all Israelis are racist because I met a few’.
I’m not saying that you were being racist. I’m saying that it’s very easy to come across as racist when pointing out things that you don’t like about a few people off the same race.
You are here doing the thing my former friends did: You are assuming I did and said things I did not do nor say, and are pearl clutching… because you’ve head canon’d in your own missing context and additional details.
I’m doing no such thing. I wasn’t judging you for your observations and I made no statement about whether I thought you were racist or not because I don’t have the information required to suggest that you are.
But did you read the entire article that is this post?
No, I didn’t need to because I was only making the comment that it’s very easy to be seen as racist when you talk about a race of people.
No, I didn’t need to because I was only making the comment that it’s very easy to be seen as racist when you talk about a race of people.
Ah, guess we better just not talk at all about race then and all just do ‘im colorblind, i intentionally ignore systemic racial injustices and judge everyone by my own racially priveleged standards’.
Fuck off.
Context matters, the context of this post and the comments that follow from it matter, you just randomly popping in to ‘agnostically’ critique a single comment, on its own, without context, when the entire point of said comment is that proper context and nuance matter is an insultingly facile and unproductive thing to do, its the insecure, passive-aggressive liberal’s version of ‘just asking questions’ / ‘lets say, hypothetically… (nonsenical rhetorical non sequitir).’
Is… is this what you do, just scan random comments and remove all context and then tell people that with all the context removed this could sound bad?
You reply to specific, detailed posts and then say oh actually I was just commenting generally, it just happened to be on this specific comment for no particular reason?
Go back to twitter or bluesky to clutch your pearls, fuck off with your disingenuous, shit-disturber bullshit.
‘nogooduser’ indeed, almost like an intentional joke name a dedicated contrarian troll would use.
Fuck off.
I’m sorry that I offended you. I was genuinely trying to be helpful in pointing out how what you said could be misconstrued.
I think it’s potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF for public support. I don’t know if they do, but it’d be smart. Israel is absolutely fucking with aid, guaranteed. They’re murdering civilians, and damn near no one seems to give a shit. It’s sad how few people seem to pay attention or care about the obvious signs of genocide. Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.
Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.
They’re not worthy victims.
Wait till Greta gets blown to pieces, then there’ll be national mourning all over the place… then it’s back to normal after a few days.I think it’s potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF
To what possible end? How does anyone in the Palestinian government benefit from their genocide?
The same possible end of israelis killing their prime minister or the current prime undermining peace efforts - power. Hamas are a bunch of lunatics, like Mileikowsky an his ilk.
I don’t really think they do that, but I’d personally find it smart. Limit the amount of aid sent so that people are suffering and desperate. Offer a solution, win public opinion. Again, I don’t really think they do that. I think that Israel’s doing all of that.
Offer a solution, win public opinion.
You can’t do that kind of politics in the middle of a genocide.
This “issue” has unfortunately been in Israeli controlled media for much longer than a year. They’ve been indoctrined to hate Palestine since the forming of israel
Also, part 2:
Israelis tend to get really fucking triggered when you tell them about:
Israel was literally founded by terrorists who bombed and shot civillians in terror bombings… as in, they explicitly targetted civillians for the chaos factor… and they wrote about this in their own journals and memoirs and then went on to lead the government.
The entire USS Liberty incident, which was almost certainly Israel trying to false flag blow up an American ship during the 6 day war and blame it on the Egyptians, to get the US directly involved.
The Apollo Affair, wherein Israeli sympathizers/spies literally stole US nuclear fissile material from the US to aide in the production of their nuclear weapons (which basically every Western government officially, and society generally, denied they even had nukes untill about a year to 6 months ago).
The Samson Doctrine, Israel’s take on nuclear detterance… is more or less this:
If Israel feels like it is going to be nuked or completely invaded, they will nuke major cities in all countries within one to two thousand miles, ally, enemy, neutral, who cares, the logic is to throw as big of a shit fit as possible and declare that if they can’t have Israel, no one can have anything, and they’ll do all that themselves.
And finally, if you just tell them that Hasbara is a real thing that obviously exists and promotes publically that it will pay anyone who will draft themselves into being an online propaganda troll for Israel.
… Conversely, if anybody were to tell me about all the awful shit the US has done and is doing, I have a functioning moral compass and brain and can say, yep, that shit is/was fucking awful, unnaceptable, and in my ideal world, all those responsible would be in jail or tried as war criminals, in the ICJ for crimes against humanity, Luigi’d, etc.
They see us Palestinians so poorly, that they’d straight up rather KILL THEMSELVES than be captured.
When that story broke, or video footage emerged of … around a year ago now…
Of a ‘hostage rescue mission’… involving a fucking Merkava point blank firing a main cannon round into the building they believed the hostages and their captors were in, that was also in a large multi family apartment building, with tons of other civillians inside…
I fucking lost it.
Even from the perspective of US Rules of Engagement in Iraq War 2, which was… lets say highly insufficient at prioritizing noncombatant safety, at best…
That is fucking godamned insane nonsense. If a US tank crew had accidentally put a tank round into a densely occupied civillian apartment building, they would have been fucking court matrialled, or it would have been covered up and a decent scandal when it leaked out later.
To do this intentionally? In a hostage rescue mission? And every pro-Israel person either ignores it or is totally fine with it?
Just fucking insane, like parody super hero ‘oops, Homelander was gonna save everyone but he got angry or sneezed and lasered the airplane pilots’ fucking insane.
When that helicopter gun cam vid of blowing away suspected insurgents first aired in 04 on ABC, it caused a national debate.
In Israel, the last year or so, we get a video like that every other day, and then people stitch themselves into it making demeaning jokes.
Oh I know, its just been dialed up to fucking insane levels lately.
Oh yeah it’s gone wild, but at least that brings the issue up for people who are willing to be informed and change their view point on the matter (as rare as that may be these days).
It’s called zionism.
As a Native American my heart goes out to all Palestinians effected by these ignorant Zionist we must be better than this we can be better than this.
My understanding is that Israeli TV is hugely responsible for making this mainstream. Just like in Rwanda where radio played a huge role in the genocide.
It’s almost as if genocide scholars have been warning about a series of patterns over the last couple of years…
The genocidal ideology of zionism is their hegemonic narrative. It’s much bigger than just TV. It’s also the schools, politicians, cops/prisons, compulsory terrorism, etc. Genocide is the basis of their entire “society”.
I don’t think that’s fair, they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age, but it’s not specifically genocide. Watched an interesting documentary recently about Jews in America and how they’re raised, it’s basically once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age,
once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
So they learn to hate from a young age, reinforced by mandatory military service (for both genders, they’re very egalitarian)… and then they grow up to accept genocide… but they’re not taught to be genocidal in school so it’s ok… got it.
Lmfao straw man, when did I once say that it was OK?
Serious question, how much of this has to do with hamas not releasing the hostages. I would imagine they’d be hearing and talking bout getting their people back constantly.
Since the steps for Palestinian genocide started before Oct 7, and the IDF has been okay with killing their own hostages in high-yield strikes, not likely.
Considering they’re carpet-bombing the place it’ll be interesting to know if there any hostages left… of course they’ll blame hamas.
It’s hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.
Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel’s current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.
However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say “freeing those people is our goal”. Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.
[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.
Hamas should free the hostages. Frankly, they should have never taken non-combatant hostages in the first place. That was absolutely a crime.
Most of October 7 was a crime, even without the hostages. Taking the hostages was itself a crime, and continuing to hold them continues to be a crime.
The question of what Hamas “should” do is more complicated. Clearly following international law is not a priority for them, so that justification goes out the window.
In terms of actually advancing their interests, I don’t see much benefit to them. Their biggest asset in Israeli domestic politics are the hostages. The political pressure in Israel to free them is real, and the decision makers all know that a deal is the only way to meet that. Further, a not insignificant portion of the population oppose the war in it’s current form specifically because of the hostages. The only wins Hamas has gotten has been through hostage negotiations.
In exchange for giving all of that up, Hamas gets a slight benefit in the PR war. It is a very hard sell to say that is a good trade.
If you want Hamas to free the hostages, you need to get to a point where “Hamas should free the hostages” is true from the perspective of Hamas. Then, you can work on convincing them it is true. The good news is that Hamas is very amenable to the idea that releasing hostages is in their interest. That is the entire reason you take hostages: to get some benefit by releasing them.
I am using “should” in a moral sense, according to my own moral compass. I mean that according to my own morality they “should do the right thing”. Nothing beyond that.
That said, I agree with your analysis entirely.
Netanyahu want to continue the genocide even after hostages are released . Don’t tell the oppressed what to do when the west been ignoring 57 years of occupation and dozens of atrocities like 7 of October through history .
You should ask for Israel to end occupation, allow a one or two state solution then bring people responsible of atrocities on both side
Go through my comment history buddy, you’re preaching to the choir. The fact that the Israeli apartheid regime is committing genocide is one thing. The fact that Hamas should not have taken non-combatant hostages is another. And sorry but no, I refuse to identify Hamas with “the oppressed”. They are fanatics propped up by slave-owners in the Gulf and politically useful idiots of the Israeili apartheid regime.
You are an idealist ignoring history and human psychology .It would be cool if there was a resistance group that do not target any civilians and do not get money from shady group. This was never the case. I can got in history and see ton of massacre commited by the oppressed due to oppresion. Like nana sahib in india promising safety to a bunch of british civilians amd soldier and ending up massacring them.
Palestinians won’t stay silence and keep hearing the useless both commited attrocities bs , waiting arabs and west countries to help which they will never do.
I don’t support hamas, i support their actions against the idf terrorists only
Talking about a useful idiot, that’s the palestinian autority collaborating with israel while israel arm and protect violent terrorists settlers and expanding settlements
You are so hardcore and knowledgeable of human history and psychology. So hardcore. Yea.
Look buddy. The world fucking sucks, right? People do horrible things. People are locked into doing horrible things. People are desperate, and brutalized and traumatized and beaten down. You can look at that and say, yea that’s how it is.
Or you can look at it and say We Should Do Better. You call that idealism? Good. In a world where reality is becoming more brutal by the hour, maybe a little idealism is what exactly we need.
Given the thousands of Palestinians taken hostage by Israel both before and after Oct 7, the vast majority of which are non-combatants and are held in nightmarish conditions. How else would Hamas negotiate for their release except via a hostage exchange? Are they supposed to just give up the only bargaining chip they have?
I don’t appreciate these “what else should they do” questions. I’ve been debating pro-zionist trolls for two years now and I no longer accept even their premise. I’m not going to turn around and apply it to Hamas.
I think holding hostages for the sake of getting your own people back from a genocidal ethnostate is maybe a little more justifiable then Zionist apologia for genocide. But maybe that’s just me.
If we are talking about combatants, sure. I would not flinch a moment. But civilians? Kids? Nah bro, don’t go there.
Shocking. Israel has successfully dehumanized the entire Palestinian population.
This was over a year ago:
“Israeli government accounts on the social media site X have been posting a video with a quote from a freed hostage, in which she says that “there are no innocent civilians” in Gaza.”
This just in: The country that has been doing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians for 77 years is still okay with doing ethnic cleansing.
Absolutely disgusting. Our common ancestors are rolling over in their graves at their inhumanity.
Say it loud for those in the back, it’s not just the leaders.
I don’t judge the individual, but I sure as hell judge them as a group, who keep voting for people who are doing genocide.
Here’s the part where some numbnuts will stop to explain, “Not all Jews!” Yeah. We get that. But the Jewish state of Israel, which was founded as a safe haven for Jews, is genocidal as fuck. And who makes up 75% of the population of Israel? Could it be… Jews? Where do 50% of the Jews on the planet reside? Could it be Israel?
And for stating a few unarguable facts, I expect a ban. Maybe I could very sheepishly, on the down-low, suggest that only a radical, very tiny number of Jews are, perhaps, maybe partly, just a bit, guilty of genocide, or at least, are collaborators and supporters?
FFS, no one has the balls to say out loud, “Not a good look guys.” <-anti-Semitism
Sincerely:
GenXer who had always supported Israel and had less than zero beef with Jews.
Yeah, I think it’s less being Jewish and more that they are settlers. They are acting just like how Canadians, Australians and Afrikaners acted against the local indigenous population.
Anything that reminds them that they don’t belong to this land (in their assessment and minds, land does not belong to anyone) they hate that. Mostly the people who were there before them.
It’s not Jewishness, it’s just Assholeishness.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews and a significant number (not sure if a majority) of diaspora Jews are actively guilty of perpetuating and aiding Israel’s genocide and occupation(s). That’s just facts and won’t get you banned (at least not from Lemmy). However, generalizing that to the significant fraction of Jews who aren’t party to these crimes or are opposing them is antisemitism and will rightly get you banned. There’s nothing complicated about this.
Sources ? The biggest foreign community that support the fascists in Israel are evangelist.
On the other side, their is a lot of Jewish organization that support Palestine
Israel is absolutely being genocidal here, but it has nothing to do with them being Jews. They want the land, full stop. They believe they are more entitled to the land than anyone else, full stop.
The fact that they are Jewish is really immaterial and hating “the Jews” because of what Israel is doing is a lot like, I dunno, hating white people because of the various White Supremacist groups.
You have a supremacist government taking genocidal actions, any supremacist government would do the same, it doesn’t matter what the heritage is.
And you have a population that largely supports the actions of the government.
It’s not the government just doing what it pleases, it’s doing what its population wants it to do.
Correct, but being Jewish isn’t a factor in their thinking.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but as my ex used to comment (she’s Jewish and went to private Jewish school) their religion is very clear in explaining they are the chosen children of God.
Off the bat they are indoctrinated that they are better than all of us.
All I know is my children are less safe in the world because of what the state of Israel is doing and that disgusts me.
Every religion is convinced they are the chosen children of God. :)
Oooh not like them. With them it’s clearly defined in the Torah multiple times. G-d Himself tells them they are His children.
So it’s a fascist state, which include a support of it’s population through nationalism. It doesn’t change anything that this nationalism is based on a religion, regional or cultural identity. It’s work the same.
Speaking about all the population is cutting ourselves from the ally we have in the 15%. We couldn’t say “it’s over, we couldn’t do anything for those left”; we are the 15% in our own imperialist state. And if you think that this is a different situation, there were German resistance during WW2 … and they almost kill hitler.
Even if you disagree, why speaking about Jewish people and not just Israeli people ? You just insulting every Jews that choose do not live in Israel. A choice you didn’t make.
For years Israel has been running around the world, waving their foes statements about “pushing Israel into the sea” as a call to arms against atrocity.
And now here they are, committing that very atrocity. But genocide seems inevitable when your stated goal is to be an ethnostate.
Wow, highlighting the fact they’re a genocidal theocratic ethnostate without highlighting the good things.
Like how they invented tomatoes hummus and fizzy water, or how good they are at exterminating the brutes!
Clearly just an antisemite. There’s no behavior the jewish people could do that would be good enough for you, short of completely stopping the genocide¹, and abandoning their entire 5000 year old culture, which is suspiciously close to lemkin’s original definition of genocide. Stopping the genocide is genocide. You people just cant stop wanting to genocide jews, can you? Antisemites make me sick.
¹which the hamas people are doing to themselves actually. Tge idf has never been outside the city of jerusalem, and actually mostly just makes music videos, check them out on social media!
They’ve literally been doing this shit since they pushed the Palestinians out of the way almost eighty fucking years ago. Of course the population is okay with it.
It’d be more surprising if the ingroup of an established ethnostate weren’t hitlerites.
