For companies and investors caught in the fray, it’s been “total misery,” says Dan Wang, research fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover History Lab and the author of Breakneck. China’s model relies on “a lot of state power, a lot of consumer power, but not very much financial investor benefit,” he says.
The United States is going to be unable to form a socialist government. Thus, it will be unable to resolve this problem, and its economy and working classes will contribute to suffer.
I think the dissolution of the United States government is a pre-requisite to forming a socialist government in the territories it occupies. The United States may be able to adopt some social democratic reforms but that’s a stretch. Definitely happy to have it all wrong, though.
Well the goal is a revolutionary overthrow of the current state and the establishment of a worker’s state controlled by a communist party, so all of that should go together. I’m not talking at all about a reformist transition to socialism. I think the impossibility of reforms under the current state are one of the reasons for it being a plausible revolutionary situation.
No yeah we are both on this site so we agree more than we disagree. I just don’t think even the borders of a future socialist state (states?) will be aligned with the current borders of the United States.
In the short to mid-term this is very likely true. There’s not even one historical example of a developed, industrialized society transitioning to socialism
In the short to mid-term this is very likely true.
Depends what time frame that is
There’s not even one historical example of a developed, industrialized society transitioning to socialism
True, but we’re entering an unprecedented era globally largely due to China’s economic and industrial power dramatically reshaping global trade. There’s only one capitalist empire today and it is in an extremely precarious position. Its internal politics are erratic and understandable while its internal economy has devolved almost entirely to self-cannibalism without the capacity to generate innovation or new value. When that house of cards tumbles, there will be new opportunities.
Yeah but historically crumbling capitalist empires turn to fascism to prevent socialist movements, it will take the collective west a lot of suffering to get through the coming internal fascist repression and coming out victorious as socialist countries. As of now, there’s only anticommunism or revisionism, establishing a strong communist party takes decades. I really hope China will help us in this endeavor and that the global south will emancipate itself and become socialist soon, but I fear the west has a hard and long path to socialism.
Generally I agree. But fascism today will probably bear little resemblance to fascism of the 20s-40s in practice. While they’ll both share reactionary state violence, the European fascism of its peak era emerged from radically different conditions to today. The key factor was the nature of fascist mass politics. The Nazis and Italian fascists drew their base from WWI veterans whose humanity had been obliterated by the horrors of war and who were ready and willing to carry out mass political violence in their millions. What’s the social base of fascism today? In the US, there are no mass fascist street movements or organizations. There is only a messy system of state repression and a large but largely inactive minority giving passive support. Without genuine popular investment in the project, it’s even more brittle than the fascisms of old, which didn’t last. I know there’s more of a mass social base in Europe, but even that is nothing compared to the radicalized bloodthirsty hordes of old fascism. Not only that, but the imperialist powers were at their all-time historic peak in power except the US, which hit its peak a few decades later but is still long past it. All of this leads me to the conclusion that this budding neofascism will not progress nearly as far or last as long as the old fascism that lead to WWII.
I really hope China will help us in this endeavor
They are, just not at all in the way the USSR did. The BRI and other investment/trade structures, multilateral institutions, and technological superiority of China (like the subject of this thread) are weakening the US’s grip and giving countries all over the world the opportunity to pursue economic development on their terms more and more each day. International trade between Global South countries is at an all-time high while the share of economic and industrial activity of the Global North is the lowest its been in centuries.
the global south will emancipate itself and become socialist soon
The Global South today is a revolutionary tinderbox ready to explode. Some inciting moment will be the spark that produces a chain reaction of decolonial revolution. I’d guess it’s an overreaching war by the hyper-empire that backfires, sets off a revolution in a major player in the Global South, and from there things keep going.
the west has a hard and long path to socialism
And yet we can see that path and we are headed down it.
I hope your analysis is correct regarding fascism in Europe, but I could argue that as much as there aren’t fascist hordes, we don’t have the degree of worker struggle and unionization of the 1900s. This is not to be pessimist, though, I appreciate your analysis.
Regarding China of course it’s already helping, I just meant more direct help over the following decade: overt military support to anti-imperialist projects, funding of radical communist organizations over the globe, economic pressure as a geopolitical tool, soft power and intelligence agencies… You know, the CIA manual, but efficient and socialist. Also they really need to abandon neoliberalism and move towards modern monetary theory + planned economy in the following years, at risk of letting neoliberalism cement itself as the only economic toolset available to the Chinese government (comrade @xiaohongshu@hexbear.net has great analysis of this latter point).
My hopes are personally on a global south revolution fueled by China and by the contradictions of neocolonialism and unequal exchange dynamiting the leftovers of the western empire once the deindustrialization it subjected on itself means it can’t maintain its geopolitical standing and its exploitation (we’re seeing this already with the entire NATO producing 1/4th the ammo that the USSR did)
America’s decision to wage war on the climate and destroy its renewable industry is its own damn fault. China is putting out the tech to solve climate change - something the US could’ve done decades ago but chose not to over and over. Should the rest of the world suffer to protect some American jobs?
Right after your quote:
Opinion immediately disregarded
I hear what you’re saying, but one thing that comes along with no American investment is no American jobs.
The United States is going to be unable to form a socialist government. Thus, it will be unable to resolve this problem, and its economy and working classes will contribute to suffer.
Disagree
I think the dissolution of the United States government is a pre-requisite to forming a socialist government in the territories it occupies. The United States may be able to adopt some social democratic reforms but that’s a stretch. Definitely happy to have it all wrong, though.
Well, we’re making great progress in destroying the country.
Well the goal is a revolutionary overthrow of the current state and the establishment of a worker’s state controlled by a communist party, so all of that should go together. I’m not talking at all about a reformist transition to socialism. I think the impossibility of reforms under the current state are one of the reasons for it being a plausible revolutionary situation.
No yeah we are both on this site so we agree more than we disagree. I just don’t think even the borders of a future socialist state (states?) will be aligned with the current borders of the United States.
In the short to mid-term this is very likely true. There’s not even one historical example of a developed, industrialized society transitioning to socialism
Depends what time frame that is
True, but we’re entering an unprecedented era globally largely due to China’s economic and industrial power dramatically reshaping global trade. There’s only one capitalist empire today and it is in an extremely precarious position. Its internal politics are erratic and understandable while its internal economy has devolved almost entirely to self-cannibalism without the capacity to generate innovation or new value. When that house of cards tumbles, there will be new opportunities.
Yeah but historically crumbling capitalist empires turn to fascism to prevent socialist movements, it will take the collective west a lot of suffering to get through the coming internal fascist repression and coming out victorious as socialist countries. As of now, there’s only anticommunism or revisionism, establishing a strong communist party takes decades. I really hope China will help us in this endeavor and that the global south will emancipate itself and become socialist soon, but I fear the west has a hard and long path to socialism.
Generally I agree. But fascism today will probably bear little resemblance to fascism of the 20s-40s in practice. While they’ll both share reactionary state violence, the European fascism of its peak era emerged from radically different conditions to today. The key factor was the nature of fascist mass politics. The Nazis and Italian fascists drew their base from WWI veterans whose humanity had been obliterated by the horrors of war and who were ready and willing to carry out mass political violence in their millions. What’s the social base of fascism today? In the US, there are no mass fascist street movements or organizations. There is only a messy system of state repression and a large but largely inactive minority giving passive support. Without genuine popular investment in the project, it’s even more brittle than the fascisms of old, which didn’t last. I know there’s more of a mass social base in Europe, but even that is nothing compared to the radicalized bloodthirsty hordes of old fascism. Not only that, but the imperialist powers were at their all-time historic peak in power except the US, which hit its peak a few decades later but is still long past it. All of this leads me to the conclusion that this budding neofascism will not progress nearly as far or last as long as the old fascism that lead to WWII.
They are, just not at all in the way the USSR did. The BRI and other investment/trade structures, multilateral institutions, and technological superiority of China (like the subject of this thread) are weakening the US’s grip and giving countries all over the world the opportunity to pursue economic development on their terms more and more each day. International trade between Global South countries is at an all-time high while the share of economic and industrial activity of the Global North is the lowest its been in centuries.
The Global South today is a revolutionary tinderbox ready to explode. Some inciting moment will be the spark that produces a chain reaction of decolonial revolution. I’d guess it’s an overreaching war by the hyper-empire that backfires, sets off a revolution in a major player in the Global South, and from there things keep going.
And yet we can see that path and we are headed down it.
I hope your analysis is correct regarding fascism in Europe, but I could argue that as much as there aren’t fascist hordes, we don’t have the degree of worker struggle and unionization of the 1900s. This is not to be pessimist, though, I appreciate your analysis.
Regarding China of course it’s already helping, I just meant more direct help over the following decade: overt military support to anti-imperialist projects, funding of radical communist organizations over the globe, economic pressure as a geopolitical tool, soft power and intelligence agencies… You know, the CIA manual, but efficient and socialist. Also they really need to abandon neoliberalism and move towards modern monetary theory + planned economy in the following years, at risk of letting neoliberalism cement itself as the only economic toolset available to the Chinese government (comrade @xiaohongshu@hexbear.net has great analysis of this latter point).
My hopes are personally on a global south revolution fueled by China and by the contradictions of neocolonialism and unequal exchange dynamiting the leftovers of the western empire once the deindustrialization it subjected on itself means it can’t maintain its geopolitical standing and its exploitation (we’re seeing this already with the entire NATO producing 1/4th the ammo that the USSR did)
America’s decision to wage war on the climate and destroy its renewable industry is its own damn fault. China is putting out the tech to solve climate change - something the US could’ve done decades ago but chose not to over and over. Should the rest of the world suffer to protect some American jobs?
Sounds like a you problem