https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
I mean, this logic could extend to desktop computers, and most people don’t upgrade theirs for years on end. But I can definitely see the sheer novelty of being able to do this with a laptop being a motivator…
There is one main difference in this comparison. If you upgrade your desktop consistently, those old parts are valuable on the used market, which can make the upgrades more affordable. Used laptop parts are less desirable due to their inoperability.
Depends… The SSD or RAM is just, well, an SSD or RAM. Maybe for those model specific hardware like monitor upgrades, yeah.
Personally, I’d like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.Hey, what do you know, there’s an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
Could you also sell your 2nd hand old main board? That would lessen the blow of a new upgrade (considering you have no need for a home server).
I have thought about a framework laptop but my laptop is a humongous gaming laptop so I don’t think framework has the horsepower I’m looking for. The fact that it’s modular is soooooo tempting though…
They have an adapter that turns it into a desktop computer, sort of like an Intel NUC.
whos they?
Framework probably
I think its made by Framework and Coolermaster
Oh… You mean like buying it and using it as a modular desktop? That could be interesting but I don’t know if it’ll have the horse power I need anyways (for gaming). For a home server I bet it’ll be more than enough.
Also, I travel with my laptop somewhat frequently so a desktop wouldn’t be ideal (unfortunately. I prefer desktops over laptops)
You know the 16 has a detachable graphics module, right?
I did not… I just had a look at their page and you’re absolutely right. Fuck… I think my next laptop might just be a framework…
Sweet!
No it’s so you can do something with the motherboard when you replace it other than ewaste. Here’s the part. It’s only $40 but you need to add a couple parts like a wifi module. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
Might work well as a little media centre or server, after all the form factor is pretty slim. Me thinks if anyone wants a gaming laptop they might go for a specialised gaming laptop for that purpose.
I agree. I really do want a framework thought, the fact that it’s modular is so cool that it just makes me want to buy it… But the tech isn’t quite there yet for my needs. Hopefully one day :)
whats an intel NUC
Tiny desktop computer made from laptop components. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/boards-kits/nuc/what-is-nuc-article.html
It’s not a bad option, but probably the best choice would be to just buy a new Framework entirely and sell the old one. Other than other home-labbers I’m not sure who’d be interested in buying a last-generation Framework mainboard, as anyone with a Framework already would likely upgrade to the latest.
Big laptops aren’t really my thing, but you may be interested in the 16-inch Framework that’s coming out as it has a slot for a dedicated GPU.
There is a market on eBay, but the longer you sit on it, the less it will sell for.
People have broken parts they need to replace, and there’s a semi-active community of people who use framework parts to create mini-servers that need a little more power than a Pi.
Not selling when you don’t need it is just hording.
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You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you’re really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term
FWIW, framework has open sourced all their schematics for building parts for their laptops. So in theory, even if they go under, other companies could continue building compatible parts.
Yep, there is that too. However, I expect that if Framework ever goes under, nobody else would build the parts because there’s nothing stopping any other company from making them right now.
do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c’s built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
Expansion cards: In theory, no, you don’t need to buy USB-C modules but it’s highly recommended. At the back of each expansion card slot is a fully functional USB-C port that the card plugs into and if you need to, you can plug cables directly into them. But because those port are, as said, at the back of the expansion card slots, this means you’d have to turn your laptop upside down every time you want to plug something in. Also, accessories that are thicker than just a cable with a standard plug (such as USB-C flash drives, card readers, and so on) probably won’t fit. Another downside is that having four expansion card sized gaps under your laptop is just ugly.
I would highly recommend that you pick up at least four expansion cards so all slots are filled. My standard setup is 2x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x HDMI. I have another 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x ethernet in my backpack in case I need to swap something.
Memory: The type of memory you need depends on the mainboard you choose. The intel ones need DDR4-3200 SO-DIMMs, the AMD ones need DDR5-5600 SO-DIMMs. Note the difference between DIMM (physically larger, for desktop PCs) and SO-DIMM (physically smaller, for laptops). Capacity-wise, they all have space for two sticks of memory with up to 32 GB each. If you’re unsure, you can buy framework laptops with the RAM included. It’s a bit more expensive than buying separately but you can be sure everything fits.
Hi. Let’s set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
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Your budget was initially $500.
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The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don’t purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I’m looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
- For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
- For hackability.
- For a laptop I won’t void the warranty for fixing.
- For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
- For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won’t disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts… we’ll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple’s software locks.)
- For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
- For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
- For sustainably sourced parts.
- To support a company that won’t put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half… maybe I’ll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would’ve sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I’ll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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apple software locks?
Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don’t work if the repair is not done by Apple.
oh god thats fucking evil, i thought uou meant some proproetary screw or some shit
They’ve done that one too. The software locks are just the most recent iteration.
If you’d like to see a demonstration, watch this video on last gen iPhone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2WhU77ihw8
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=K2WhU77ihw8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I’m an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn’t even remove) You have to sign into apple’s repair website, and ‘run a diagnostic’ in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It’s shit.
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bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
How’d you find it on Amazon?
what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.
I have an E560, I like it, but I’m not will versed enough to know why I shouldn’t. So why did I make a terrible decision? :P
For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I’m fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
As I wrote, one month is fine. If it’s one or two weeks more, it’s ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I’m in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.
The waiting time heavily depends on whether you want Intel or Ryzen, and whether you want 13 or 16 inch.
13 inch Intel should ship pretty much instant even now as far as I know, the just released Ryzen now has to catch up with pre-orders first, and 16" isn’t yet released AFAIK.
I bought a refurbished 11th gen Intel back in March and that got here in just a few days and I can’t say anything about it didn’t feel brand new. Have been using it almost daily since.
Simple answer yes long answer maybe
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
Well that’s the point, ain’t it? You didn’t because you couldn’t. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
Thought the same thing. Over time I replaced everything in my laptop that I could and specifically chose a laptop that is easyish to open and get parts for.
I would love for a better processor and graphics card but the mainboard and power supply does not allow for better hardware. So I will need to buy a different laptop some day. If it were as easy as ordering new parts and putting it in there without fear of incompatibility I would love that.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
I’ve never had a laptop that I didn’t at the very least upgrade the ram on…
Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
For me, it’s looking to be a good choice. I enjoy hardware hacking/tinkering so, the 16 inch is going to be a great platform for me to tinker on (planning to extend the hinges and put a bunch of fun stuff on the top/kb area.
I’d get a cheaper laptop for $400 or so (Walmart/BestBuy have those with decent specs), add in some more RAM and swap the NVMe. True, no Coreboot (wait, do you get Framework laptops with Coreboot?), but otherwise better value for the money
I seriously looked at them, but in the end, it was too expensive, especially over last years’ models on sale- which were also very repairable. Not quite as much, but damn close, and with a dedicated GPU and better IO.
I like what they are doing, but they aren’t quite there yet. The best long term investment IMO is a PC, since it can be easily upgraded independent of any one company. And the parts are much easier to trade, resell, etc.
It can be a long term investment in the same way a car is a long term investment - you can tune it up over the long term to extend it’s life but at a certain point you’ll likely have to replace some key components. The theory is that the cost of those repairs will be less than buying a whole new laptop though.
Warning: This comment contains small sample sizes.
In my adult life, I have owned two laptops. Both were bought brand new, both were relatively high end machines that cost more than $1000 each, plus accessories and the maximum extended warranties they offered. Both lasted 8+ years in service. The second one (a 2014 Dell Inspiron) is still in service, though I need to upgrade the OS on it.
Both machines required warranty service fairly early in their lives(the Dell egregiously so; very long story very short, they sold me a lemon and after replacing practically everything in it at least once they eventually replaced the machine outright) and received repairs/upgrades around the 4 year mark. The Gateway got its fan cleaned and the RAM replaced/upgraded from 1 to 2 GB. It also required frequent adjustment to its display hinge. It was running okay if slow by the end of it; a Centrino Duo running Vista was kind of sluggish in 2014. The monitor died in a way I couldn’t fix, and replacements were unobtainable, so that’s what finally did it in. The Dell got a fan replaced, the battery replaced, and the HDD replaced/upgraded to a SATA SSD. It is still running its originally installed 16GB of DDR3 RAM. It’s slightly sluggish running Windows, but feels very responsive running Linux. I intend to keep it in service until Linux Mint doesn’t support it or something breaks that I can’t fix.
On both machines, the I/O didn’t age particularly gracefully. The Gateway only had a VGA connector well into the era of HDMI and DisplayPort, the Dell has USB 3.0 and no USB-C connectors, no Ethernet and a proprietary barrel jack charger.
Both machines showed scuffs and scratches by year 8 but the chassis held up and were/are still serviceable.
Given my history with laptops, I see a Framework as pretty much the same “investment” that my Gateway and Dell were. I would not anticipate upgrading the mainboard; I don’t think they’ll keep making mainboards compatible with the current issue chassis a decade from now, and the chassis will probably be ready for a replacement by then anyway. But, I anticipate replacing the battery, SSD and probably a fan or two at the 4 or 5 year mark, likely out of warranty, and it looks like Framework would be above average for that.
My next laptop is likely to be a Framework simply because they’re one of the few companies that A. still exists and B. hasn’t pissed me off yet.
Since no one asked… What are your use cases? Do you need a discrete GPU? Something lite? Something with lots of ports?
If you can afford it easily and used 500 bucks as a random number sure no problem, but othewise I don’t think it a Framework is a good idea.
No.
For it to be a good investment it’s value would have to go up over time or drop at a slower rate than other comparable things.
A mac is a better investment (but still not “good”) not only because they tend to hold more value over time but the used market has higher volume so there’s less chance you need to price it low or wait a long time when you’re ready to sell.
If you’re worried about the value of being able to fix it, spend less than your $500 budget on a used t480 with the processor you want, upgrade the ram to 16, 32 or 64gb, install at least one ssd and be glad that there are literally millions of inexpensive spare parts on the market and will be for at least a decade.
What framework does uniquely offer is the ability to change your complement of ports. That’s either a useless novelty or a powerful tool depending entirely upon weather you consistently swap them out and can find all the ports you need as expansions or not.
Is it worth it to not be carrying around some dongle? I don’t know.
E: the processor to get on that t480 is one of the intels.
Hi. If you want to look for a new laptop, you can also try out Tuxedo laptops: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/Alle.tuxedo
Their laptops are a bit cheaper and also repairable, starting from 850 EUR (8GB RAM, no Win license, etc.) They assemble laptops, you specify components to your needs.
I’m a happy owner of Tuxedo InfinityBook 15. The most important is that they use normal generic power supply (not some proprietary one that is hard to replace) with an ability to charge from 65+W USB-C connector. Battery preservation bypass mode is also possible in BIOS settings. Their keyboards are also high-quality, replaceable and can have a custom layout. The screen is also high-quality. Initial setup is easy af. They maintain their own distro, which is quite good on its own, but the hardware is also Win-compatible. They also provide 5% discount for students.
(note: not sponsored)
