But even just slowing it down gives us more time to try to stop it.
Do you really want to go with that argument, considering Trump got the ceasefire while Biden and Harris didn’t? If you’re going to advance a utilitarian argument, then absolute numbers are the only metric you can care about, which makes Trump in YOUR ARGUMENT the harm reductionist
Does that sound like good politics to you? Objectively, the genocide has “slowed down” since its height during the later half of 2024, and yet you wouldn’t dare utilize a utilitarian argument on behalf of Trump, yet it’s fine for dems?
This chart shows that the deaths in Gaza markedly increased in the first year of Trump’s term. While Biden and Harris obviously didn’t do near enough to try to stop Israel, Trump openly encouraged them to finish the job, and I think that attitude and brazen support contributed to that increase in deaths. In fact, deaths trended downward or remained stable more often under Biden than it did under Trump. Without Trump, we probably wouldn’t have seen as strong a resurgence of deaths, if we’d have seen one at all.
As I already explained, that chart is a massive undercount subject to the capacity of Gaza health authorities. It is not simply a count of how many people actually died over time, not by a long shot, and you cannot honestly use it in the way you are trying to.
See, you need to stop replying and you need to read. Stop saying things. Go read. If you feel the need to reply, you need to read first so you can be coherent and not a bullshitter advocating for genocidaires.
I’ve seen a ton of people in here who claim to know better than me. Who insist that I need to do some reading. You know what maybe, maybe a single fucking person has done in the probably approaching 30 replies I’ve read so far? Actually suggested something informative to read. Everyone in here wants to jerk their dicks about how god damn smart they are compared to everyone else, but here’s someone who agrees the genocide is bad and needs to stop, only disagreeing on tactics to achieve it, and how is that met? Verbal abuse. That’s it. You’re all keenly aware that the popular media is manipulative, but does anyone take five fucking seconds to try to direct me to something that might help me share their line of thinking? Fuck no, tell me I actually endorse it and move on.
I’ve seen a ton of people in here who claim to know better than me.
They are objectively correct on that. This is the reality you are failing to cope with and you try to deflect from it by pretending it is others saying they are super smart and know everythign and not you that is ignorant and acting arrogantly.
Who insist that I need to do some reading.
That is how you learn things, yes. You have admitted to not following this issue very closely and having no organizing experience.
You know what maybe, maybe a single fucking person has done in the probably approaching 30 replies I’ve read so far? Actually suggested something informative to read.
You have been combative, condescending, and evasive. You have been provided with easily sourced claims and a few sources and y ou just dither about it. What about that do you think is supposed to make people think, “yeah this person would love a reading list”. What would I even suggest to you? You don’t seem to know anything but also don’t think you need to learn anything and you already have the answers. When people provide clear claims about what has happened politically or historically you demand citations lest you not agree with them rather than easily finding them yourself. You belabored your improper use of WHO statistics for like 4-5 comments, were corrected repeatedly, and acted like you were right by default and others needed to provide you with “quality” citations to change your mind.
Have you never interacted with other people before?
Everyone in here wants to jerk their dicks
You should stop sexualizing people like this.
about how god damn smart they are compared to everyone else
I haven’t seen a single example of this. You seem to be defensively and dishonestly responding to criticisms of your ignorance and lack of experiene and how it is implicitly compared to people who have spent time and done work. THis is apparently very unfair to you, that people who know things and do work would say, ‘you don’t knwo things and would if you have done work’.
but here’s someone who agrees the genocide is bad and needs to stop, only disagreeing on tactics to achieve it, and how is that met?
You don’t seem to think it’s that bad actually, at least when it happens overseas by your political buddies. After all your only specific political claim and goal has been for people to vote for the genociders.
Verbal abuse. That’s it.
More lying to avoid the fact that you had many patient responses at first, on this and other topics, and people only gave up on you after you demonstrated bad faith. That includes me by the way, so I know exactly what happened.
You’re all keenly aware that the popular media is manipulative, but does anyone take five fucking seconds to try to direct me to something that might help me share their line of thinking?
Actually you’ve been provided with a few links, including from myself, regarding specific points. You have at no point appreciated or respected this, and instead become defensive and evasive. But again, nobody is going to see your behavior and think, “yeah, this person should read socialist theory” or anything remotely like that. You have to understand and accept your ignorance in order to absorb information. You have to have your defensiveness beaten out of you because kind approaches weren’t working.
Fuck no, tell me I actually endorse it and move on.
You literally advocate for voting for genocidaires.
Are you a bot? I literally addressed every one of these claims above; the chart IS UNDERCOUNTING BY A FACTOR OF TEN, Israel blew up all the hospitals that counted the dead; those early numbers never actually decreased; they simply weren’t counted by anyone
The chart also doesn’t account for the fact the ceasefire allowed for more identification of bodies, which means people who were killed under Biden’s watch were only identified months later after Trump took office
The chart, despite being wrong even then shows the vast majority of deaths took place under Biden and the greatest decrease, in absolute terms, took place under Trump
Like thirty of you motherfuckers dog piled me, I’m trying to work through it as fast as I can, but I got stuff to do, too. I don’t just sit around and wait for you to say something for me to dote on. Calm down, I’ll get to you when I get a chance.
See you didn’t understand that I’m not insulting you so much as emphatically telling you that you are digging your own holes here. Nobody required you to share your ignorant opinions in favor of genocidaires and then keep defending them and deflecting despite knowing nothing.
You created your own problem and are now complaining about it like it’s just something that happened to poor little you.
I’ve tried to reply in good faith to every single person who has responded with a modicum of kindness. Well, it’s still a work in progress, I’ve got like 18 notifications still after probably 25ish replies, and I’ll pop this short one off the list before I disengage for today.
You wanna actually try to discuss the topic? I’m happy to have a polite discussion, as you can see me doing many times in this thread if you look around. If you wanna just insult me and put words in my mouth? I’m gonna tell you to get fucked and move on, it’s not worth my time to devote more to a response like that.
You’ve had the fatal flaws in your thinking calmly explained to you a dozen times over, and simply refuse to acknowledge it. Then, once people stop being so remarkably patient with you, you take that friction as an excuse to retreat into adolescent hostility.
“Reply in good faith” yeah man only the most good faith people have to say it out loud.
If you were here in good faith, you would answer people’s critique in a way that isn’t just “uhh well we can’t do anything or even think about doing anything until the blue Hitler party is back in power.”
I don’t mind that I got a lot of replies. I just didn’t like being hassled by someone who expected me to handle the flood on their schedule.
stop advocating for genocide
Go fuck yourself. Just because I don’t agree with you on how to stop it doesn’t mean I’m an advocate for it. If you wanna ever manage to make another communist out of someone else, maybe don’t insult them when you find common ground.
I’ll look over anything anyone wants to share, so if you have any good sources to contradict the chart that you haven’t included, feel free to edit them in. I haven’t tracked down your original comment, so that’s not to say you haven’t, just if you want me to see anything, go ahead and add it there. It’ll probably be tomorrow or maybe the next day before I get a chance to churn through any more of this, but I’ll try to get back to it as soon as I can. I may not be fond of the overly cynical defeatism that’s popular in here, but I get where it’s coming from, and I’m open to having my view changed if people are willing to share quality evidence. I’ll try to dig up your comment before I go through the others and see what’s potentially wrong with the chart.
The meaning has already been explained to you and is listed in the WHO citation of your own source. The Gaza Health Ministry is the officially-sanctioned death count producer in all of these “reports” and was systematically disabled by relentless genocidal bombing campaigns of the entire region, and particularly hospitals. Those counts are not accurate, they are a floor, and they are off by an order of magnitude.
The liberal-friendly source on the latter is a Lancet study from like 2024. But there have been many studies on this. Not that you need studies, because again, just knowing the basics of what happened on the ground and how these statistics themselves are sourced makes it obvious. Every major hospital was destroyed. That’s where they recorded these things early-on, primarily. Mass displacement during this hot genocide meant civil services were breaking down and the peopl resposnible were dead, hiding, or moving. This is all very pubilcly known information.
I’m pretty sure I’ve already moved past a notification from you where I’ve admitted someone has explained this and I’ve accepted the mistake. Pretty sure you were kind of an asshole about it, but I’ll address that when I get to it, that’s not the point here.
I was aware of the destruction of infrastructure, hospitals, etc., but I made the apparently erroneous assumption that other methods were used to make a more (but still not completely) accurate estimate. I did not expect the numbers to be perfect, but I figured they’d probably be close enough for discussion purposes. I have been repeatedly assured, by people who don’t seem to grasp that I’m responding to comments in the order I get them, that that is incorrect, so I’ll check out that study when I get a bit more time. If you have anything else that’s relevant, especially anything that might more accurately reflect the count beyond knowing it’s wildly inaccurate, I’d be open to reading that, too.
I’m pretty sure I’ve already moved past a notification from you where I’ve admitted someone has explained this and I’ve accepted the mistake.
I’m not pretty sure. Should I start whining about how you didn’t preemptively provide a citation for this?
Pretty sure you were kind of an asshole about it, but I’ll address that when I get to it, that’s not the point here.
Go ahead and point to it and we can discuss.
I was aware of the destruction of infrastructure, hospitals, etc., but I made the apparently erroneous assumption that other methods were used to make a more (but still not completely) accurate estimate.
So you knew that the GHM was the source of these statistics? That they were largely disabled by the mass bombing campaigns, where the numbers stayed flat while civilian cetner bombing campaigns escalated? that didn’t make you scratch your head? I know that you didn’t really follow these things very closely and did not think of this. In isolation, that is fine. I don’t require anyone to know these things by default. The only expectation is in how they respond to correction and how they pretend at knowledge to forward the power and careers of those doing the genocide.
I did not expect the numbers to be perfect
You claimed they meant something that they don’t. THat is the issue. Nobody set the bar of “perfect”.
but I figured they’d probably be close enough for discussion purposes.
Wrong.
I have been repeatedly assured, by people who don’t seem to grasp that I’m responding to comments in the order I get them, that that is incorrect, so I’ll check out that study when I get a bit more time.
Do that instead of resonding to comments. ANd again, you don’t even need the fucking study. You just need an operational understanding of where the statistics you cited come from. Not everything in politics is going to be laid out for you on a platter by some university dweebs, you need to konw how to question these things before a lancet study comes out, just like every pro-Palestine organizer knew in 2023. That is, if you want to lecture others about it and double down and pretend to be the explainer on this topic.
If you have anything else that’s relevant, especially anything that might more accurately reflect the count beyond knowing it’s wildly inaccurate, I’d be open to reading that, too.
It’s a floor. It is an undercount by an order of magnitude. Nobody knows the actual number because the people responsible for recording it were killed and displaced and the bodies buried under high rises and still not exhumed. The bombing has not stopped. Your boy Biden made sure of that. Vote for him, eh?
I’m open to having my view changed if people are willing to share quality evidence.
Evidence was repeatedly provided to you and you keep going on the same insufferable diatribe. You aren’t willing to accept that you are wrong, you accuse of us being cynical and defeatist just for correctly pointing out no amount of voting blue will stop this. You have been nothing but condescending in this thread to people treating you with more patience and grace than you deserve.
At the time that I wrote that, I had not seen any of it yet because I addressed all my comments in the order they came in, to the best of my ability. Any evidence that may have been provided came after my response here. I’m trying to work through this as fast as I can, but I got SO MANY responses. Calm down, I’ll get through them all eventually.
Don’t bother replying just read what everyone else said and have a long think about it. You could have been reading instead of spamming that useless chart to everyone.
Like 30 people replied to me, plus replies to my responses to those comments, and with life preventing me from spending all day replying to everyone, it’s taking a lot of time to work through. I’ve replied to at least 15 comments and still have 20 notifications. As you can see from the fact I’m just now getting to you, it’s taking some time to get to everyone. That said, I’ve since seen a persuasive argument against the chart in this thread, so I’ve already agreed to stop sharing it.
Do you really want to go with that argument, considering Trump got the ceasefire while Biden and Harris didn’t? If you’re going to advance a utilitarian argument, then absolute numbers are the only metric you can care about, which makes Trump in YOUR ARGUMENT the harm reductionist
Does that sound like good politics to you? Objectively, the genocide has “slowed down” since its height during the later half of 2024, and yet you wouldn’t dare utilize a utilitarian argument on behalf of Trump, yet it’s fine for dems?
This chart shows that the deaths in Gaza markedly increased in the first year of Trump’s term. While Biden and Harris obviously didn’t do near enough to try to stop Israel, Trump openly encouraged them to finish the job, and I think that attitude and brazen support contributed to that increase in deaths. In fact, deaths trended downward or remained stable more often under Biden than it did under Trump. Without Trump, we probably wouldn’t have seen as strong a resurgence of deaths, if we’d have seen one at all.
As I already explained, that chart is a massive undercount subject to the capacity of Gaza health authorities. It is not simply a count of how many people actually died over time, not by a long shot, and you cannot honestly use it in the way you are trying to.
See, you need to stop replying and you need to read. Stop saying things. Go read. If you feel the need to reply, you need to read first so you can be coherent and not a bullshitter advocating for genocidaires.
I’ve seen a ton of people in here who claim to know better than me. Who insist that I need to do some reading. You know what maybe, maybe a single fucking person has done in the probably approaching 30 replies I’ve read so far? Actually suggested something informative to read. Everyone in here wants to jerk their dicks about how god damn smart they are compared to everyone else, but here’s someone who agrees the genocide is bad and needs to stop, only disagreeing on tactics to achieve it, and how is that met? Verbal abuse. That’s it. You’re all keenly aware that the popular media is manipulative, but does anyone take five fucking seconds to try to direct me to something that might help me share their line of thinking? Fuck no, tell me I actually endorse it and move on.
They are objectively correct on that. This is the reality you are failing to cope with and you try to deflect from it by pretending it is others saying they are super smart and know everythign and not you that is ignorant and acting arrogantly.
That is how you learn things, yes. You have admitted to not following this issue very closely and having no organizing experience.
You have been combative, condescending, and evasive. You have been provided with easily sourced claims and a few sources and y ou just dither about it. What about that do you think is supposed to make people think, “yeah this person would love a reading list”. What would I even suggest to you? You don’t seem to know anything but also don’t think you need to learn anything and you already have the answers. When people provide clear claims about what has happened politically or historically you demand citations lest you not agree with them rather than easily finding them yourself. You belabored your improper use of WHO statistics for like 4-5 comments, were corrected repeatedly, and acted like you were right by default and others needed to provide you with “quality” citations to change your mind.
Have you never interacted with other people before?
You should stop sexualizing people like this.
I haven’t seen a single example of this. You seem to be defensively and dishonestly responding to criticisms of your ignorance and lack of experiene and how it is implicitly compared to people who have spent time and done work. THis is apparently very unfair to you, that people who know things and do work would say, ‘you don’t knwo things and would if you have done work’.
You don’t seem to think it’s that bad actually, at least when it happens overseas by your political buddies. After all your only specific political claim and goal has been for people to vote for the genociders.
More lying to avoid the fact that you had many patient responses at first, on this and other topics, and people only gave up on you after you demonstrated bad faith. That includes me by the way, so I know exactly what happened.
Actually you’ve been provided with a few links, including from myself, regarding specific points. You have at no point appreciated or respected this, and instead become defensive and evasive. But again, nobody is going to see your behavior and think, “yeah, this person should read socialist theory” or anything remotely like that. You have to understand and accept your ignorance in order to absorb information. You have to have your defensiveness beaten out of you because kind approaches weren’t working.
You literally advocate for voting for genocidaires.
Are you a bot? I literally addressed every one of these claims above; the chart IS UNDERCOUNTING BY A FACTOR OF TEN, Israel blew up all the hospitals that counted the dead; those early numbers never actually decreased; they simply weren’t counted by anyone
The chart also doesn’t account for the fact the ceasefire allowed for more identification of bodies, which means people who were killed under Biden’s watch were only identified months later after Trump took office
The chart, despite being wrong even then shows the vast majority of deaths took place under Biden and the greatest decrease, in absolute terms, took place under Trump
Like thirty of you motherfuckers dog piled me, I’m trying to work through it as fast as I can, but I got stuff to do, too. I don’t just sit around and wait for you to say something for me to dote on. Calm down, I’ll get to you when I get a chance.
You can always just shut the fuck up and not write ignorant genocide apologia.
You can also gargle my balls, but I tried to stay a bit more polite than that.
See you didn’t understand that I’m not insulting you so much as emphatically telling you that you are digging your own holes here. Nobody required you to share your ignorant opinions in favor of genocidaires and then keep defending them and deflecting despite knowing nothing.
You created your own problem and are now complaining about it like it’s just something that happened to poor little you.
I’ve tried to reply in good faith to every single person who has responded with a modicum of kindness. Well, it’s still a work in progress, I’ve got like 18 notifications still after probably 25ish replies, and I’ll pop this short one off the list before I disengage for today.
You wanna actually try to discuss the topic? I’m happy to have a polite discussion, as you can see me doing many times in this thread if you look around. If you wanna just insult me and put words in my mouth? I’m gonna tell you to get fucked and move on, it’s not worth my time to devote more to a response like that.
You’ve had the fatal flaws in your thinking calmly explained to you a dozen times over, and simply refuse to acknowledge it. Then, once people stop being so remarkably patient with you, you take that friction as an excuse to retreat into adolescent hostility.
“Reply in good faith” yeah man only the most good faith people have to say it out loud.
If you were here in good faith, you would answer people’s critique in a way that isn’t just “uhh well we can’t do anything or even think about doing anything until the blue Hitler party is back in power.”
If you don’t like being dog piled by communists, stop advocating for genocide
I don’t mind that I got a lot of replies. I just didn’t like being hassled by someone who expected me to handle the flood on their schedule.
Go fuck yourself. Just because I don’t agree with you on how to stop it doesn’t mean I’m an advocate for it. If you wanna ever manage to make another communist out of someone else, maybe don’t insult them when you find common ground.
I ain’t reading all that nazi shit, free Palestine
Fair enough on the dogpile thing, but you really have to stop posting that chart; it’s grossly incorrect and misrepresentative
I’ll look over anything anyone wants to share, so if you have any good sources to contradict the chart that you haven’t included, feel free to edit them in. I haven’t tracked down your original comment, so that’s not to say you haven’t, just if you want me to see anything, go ahead and add it there. It’ll probably be tomorrow or maybe the next day before I get a chance to churn through any more of this, but I’ll try to get back to it as soon as I can. I may not be fond of the overly cynical defeatism that’s popular in here, but I get where it’s coming from, and I’m open to having my view changed if people are willing to share quality evidence. I’ll try to dig up your comment before I go through the others and see what’s potentially wrong with the chart.
The meaning has already been explained to you and is listed in the WHO citation of your own source. The Gaza Health Ministry is the officially-sanctioned death count producer in all of these “reports” and was systematically disabled by relentless genocidal bombing campaigns of the entire region, and particularly hospitals. Those counts are not accurate, they are a floor, and they are off by an order of magnitude.
The liberal-friendly source on the latter is a Lancet study from like 2024. But there have been many studies on this. Not that you need studies, because again, just knowing the basics of what happened on the ground and how these statistics themselves are sourced makes it obvious. Every major hospital was destroyed. That’s where they recorded these things early-on, primarily. Mass displacement during this hot genocide meant civil services were breaking down and the peopl resposnible were dead, hiding, or moving. This is all very pubilcly known information.
I’m pretty sure I’ve already moved past a notification from you where I’ve admitted someone has explained this and I’ve accepted the mistake. Pretty sure you were kind of an asshole about it, but I’ll address that when I get to it, that’s not the point here.
I was aware of the destruction of infrastructure, hospitals, etc., but I made the apparently erroneous assumption that other methods were used to make a more (but still not completely) accurate estimate. I did not expect the numbers to be perfect, but I figured they’d probably be close enough for discussion purposes. I have been repeatedly assured, by people who don’t seem to grasp that I’m responding to comments in the order I get them, that that is incorrect, so I’ll check out that study when I get a bit more time. If you have anything else that’s relevant, especially anything that might more accurately reflect the count beyond knowing it’s wildly inaccurate, I’d be open to reading that, too.
I’m not pretty sure. Should I start whining about how you didn’t preemptively provide a citation for this?
Go ahead and point to it and we can discuss.
So you knew that the GHM was the source of these statistics? That they were largely disabled by the mass bombing campaigns, where the numbers stayed flat while civilian cetner bombing campaigns escalated? that didn’t make you scratch your head? I know that you didn’t really follow these things very closely and did not think of this. In isolation, that is fine. I don’t require anyone to know these things by default. The only expectation is in how they respond to correction and how they pretend at knowledge to forward the power and careers of those doing the genocide.
You claimed they meant something that they don’t. THat is the issue. Nobody set the bar of “perfect”.
Wrong.
Do that instead of resonding to comments. ANd again, you don’t even need the fucking study. You just need an operational understanding of where the statistics you cited come from. Not everything in politics is going to be laid out for you on a platter by some university dweebs, you need to konw how to question these things before a lancet study comes out, just like every pro-Palestine organizer knew in 2023. That is, if you want to lecture others about it and double down and pretend to be the explainer on this topic.
It’s a floor. It is an undercount by an order of magnitude. Nobody knows the actual number because the people responsible for recording it were killed and displaced and the bodies buried under high rises and still not exhumed. The bombing has not stopped. Your boy Biden made sure of that. Vote for him, eh?
Evidence was repeatedly provided to you and you keep going on the same insufferable diatribe. You aren’t willing to accept that you are wrong, you accuse of us being cynical and defeatist just for correctly pointing out no amount of voting blue will stop this. You have been nothing but condescending in this thread to people treating you with more patience and grace than you deserve.
At the time that I wrote that, I had not seen any of it yet because I addressed all my comments in the order they came in, to the best of my ability. Any evidence that may have been provided came after my response here. I’m trying to work through this as fast as I can, but I got SO MANY responses. Calm down, I’ll get through them all eventually.
Don’t bother replying just read what everyone else said and have a long think about it. You could have been reading instead of spamming that useless chart to everyone.
you are still repeating this incorrect and false information after being debunked repeatedly in this very thread.
Like 30 people replied to me, plus replies to my responses to those comments, and with life preventing me from spending all day replying to everyone, it’s taking a lot of time to work through. I’ve replied to at least 15 comments and still have 20 notifications. As you can see from the fact I’m just now getting to you, it’s taking some time to get to everyone. That said, I’ve since seen a persuasive argument against the chart in this thread, so I’ve already agreed to stop sharing it.