I think what they’re saying, and what I agree with, is polarization leads to extremists. Our society is full of stupid people, and catering to the lowest common denominator means painting your opposition as a caricature and yourself to be the polar opposite of them.
Fascism and authoritarianism are extremes. If we have a less polarized political environment then there is room for subtlety, nuance, and understanding.
Fascism and authoritarianism are the same extreme… and they are on the rise globally in a big way. So what do you think are (1) the opposite “extreme” and (2) a “less extreme” approach to answering to such extremism?
I think a better example than the Git one I gave is the whole idea that anyone anti-Trump needs to vote blue no matter who. I was a huge supporter of Sanders, but I do not want to support Clinton. The entire vote blue no matter who thing really exemplifies exactly what we’re talking about here: it doesn’t matter if you dislike Clinton or Biden - you need to vote for them because they aren’t Trump.
Your actual opinion doesn’t matter. You need to vote for the candidate your party picks. Seems pretty authoritarian to me.
To build on my response to your last comment: you walked right into the answer but didn’t see it.
America has two right wing parties.
The first step toward a solution is RCV, which shifts power left… back to the people. But look at the states proactively banning RCV, because they know it removes corrupt, undemocratic power from their own leaders. And what are Democrats doing to fight this? Nothing. Because stealing choice from the American people serves them, too.
Again, liberals are all about lip service. Pretend to be progressive only insofar as certain policies can be abused for personal gain.
Maybe we’re talking past each other here. We aren’t saying there is an opposite of authoritarianism which is extremist. We’re saying opposites like liberal vs conservative can be polarized to extremes, and the result of both is authoritarianism.
For example, a lot of Republicans try to ban books on homosexuality, trans people, etc. from libraries / public schools. There are also a lot of Republicans who seem support some racist political policies.
That leads to extremist views from the other side as well. For example, some software development companies ban the use of the word “master” for the main Git branch. This was the standard name since the beginning of time for Git, and was used in the context of it being the source of truth, like “master’s degree” or “master blacksmith”. It has absolutely nothing to do with a master / slave relationship, and isn’t racist in any way. Yet a LOT of people argue that it doesn’t matter - if someone feels uncomfortable about the word being used, we shouldn’t use it.
I think that’s a form of authoritarianism as well. Both examples are uneducated people who dislike something wanting to see it banned for everyone due to their own ignorance. It doesn’t matter that the second example is trying to be socially/ racially conscious. They’re wrong, uneducated, and trying to impose their own beliefs on others due to ignorance.
The less extreme approach to educate people more, and for people to calm down, have open, constructive discussions. Trying to understand the person you perceive as an enemy can be very rewarding for both parties and for society in general.
Oh no. No no no. The problem here is that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about… well, a bunch of things. Let’s break some of this down…
For example, a lot of Republicans try to ban books on homosexuality, trans people, etc. from libraries / public schools. There are also a lot of Republicans who seem support some racist political policies.
Glad that you understand this. Let’s set this as our baseline.
That leads to extremist views from the other side as well.
What is the “other side” here? The opposite of authoritarianism is egalitarianism. Maybe you are thinking “conservatives vs liberals” - but both of those things are right wing. You seem to be considering only a very narrow window of political ideology… and that entire window is right of center.
or example, some software development companies ban the use of the word “master” for the main Git branch.
Sweet jesus. Choosing your naming conventions is not a ban. Dear God. I am godsmacked by how absolutely out-of-touch and off-base this entire rant is. This is not even a political issue. Wow. Nobody is passing laws demanding software developers follow certain naming conventions. And if you don’t see how the terms master-slave could be seen as icky and therefore people might opt for using different terms for their own projects… well, my dude, that is on you and only you. Wow. Just… WOW.
I think that’s a form of authoritarianism as well.
No. Wow. Just no. Not even close. See above.
Both examples are uneducated people who dislike something …
Oh my god. This keeps getting worse. You keep using words like “ignorant” and “uneducated” but you just EXPLICITLY misrepresented software developers voluntarily choosing their own naming conventions and AT THE SAME TIME conflated it with formal, on-the-books laws banning books and oppressing vulnerable minorities. I just… I can’t even… this is so deeply irrational and clueless… ignorant and uneducated even… there is nowhere for me to even BEGIN. You are flinging insults while proudly and loudly exemplifying the very things you are accusing others of…
The less extreme approach to educate people more, and for people to calm down, have open, constructive discussions. Trying to understand the person you perceive as an enemy can be very rewarding for both parties and for society in general.
So here’s a little bit of that education you’re asking for: The Republican and Democratic parties are both RIGHT WING PARTIES. Liberals are right-wing enablers who pretend to support left-wing ideals only insofar as they can use those to their personal benefit. The political spectrum goes far beyond the DNC in terms of leftism. You are spouting rightist propaganda and I think you don’t even realize it. You’ve been duped.
Rightism is about consolidating power and authority. It’s natural extremes are monarchism, oligarchy, dictatorship, and the like. Many things called leftist are explicitly rightist… see literally any country who current does (or ever has) called themselves communist. Did the state wither away? No? Not communist. Nationalizing everything under a single leader or ruling class is still rightist. Even a “benevolent monarchy” is still rightist.
Leftism is egalitarian. The power and authority belongs to the people. Consolidation is not tolerated. Because wealth and power are the same thing, both are Constitutionally regulated. Representative systems must be kept limited as a ruling class must never be tolerated. Wealth hoarding must never be tolerated. It’s natural “extremes” are anarchism, direct democracy, and self-organized communism.
Between those is an infinitely complex web of systems and ideologies that try to balance freedom and liberty (leftism) with stability (rightism).
With this background you can start to see that, in American politics, you have extreme rightists (Republicans) and right-leaning centrists (Democrats). Leftists - actual leftists (like myself) - tend to vote democrat only because we have no other choice. If someone thinks it’s okay to ban books, to deny others medical care, to deny others basic human rights, to restrict others personal freedoms when they do not infringe on or affect anyone else… then there is no dialogue or discussion to be had.
There is no compromise or meeting in the middle on such subjects.
There is no “misunderstanding” nor any situation where “maybe the fascists have a good reason for putting their metaphorical boot on my throat”.
We do NOT surrender rights, freedoms, or liberties. You do not compromise on them. We do not discuss compromising them. Those who would oppress others in such a way have declared war on their fellow humans and countrymen. Until the attacks end, there is no room for dialogue.
I think what they’re saying, and what I agree with, is polarization leads to extremists. Our society is full of stupid people, and catering to the lowest common denominator means painting your opposition as a caricature and yourself to be the polar opposite of them.
Fascism and authoritarianism are extremes. If we have a less polarized political environment then there is room for subtlety, nuance, and understanding.
Fascism and authoritarianism are the same extreme… and they are on the rise globally in a big way. So what do you think are (1) the opposite “extreme” and (2) a “less extreme” approach to answering to such extremism?
I think a better example than the Git one I gave is the whole idea that anyone anti-Trump needs to vote blue no matter who. I was a huge supporter of Sanders, but I do not want to support Clinton. The entire vote blue no matter who thing really exemplifies exactly what we’re talking about here: it doesn’t matter if you dislike Clinton or Biden - you need to vote for them because they aren’t Trump.
Your actual opinion doesn’t matter. You need to vote for the candidate your party picks. Seems pretty authoritarian to me.
To build on my response to your last comment: you walked right into the answer but didn’t see it.
America has two right wing parties.
The first step toward a solution is RCV, which shifts power left… back to the people. But look at the states proactively banning RCV, because they know it removes corrupt, undemocratic power from their own leaders. And what are Democrats doing to fight this? Nothing. Because stealing choice from the American people serves them, too.
Again, liberals are all about lip service. Pretend to be progressive only insofar as certain policies can be abused for personal gain.
There is no leftist party in the US.
Maybe we’re talking past each other here. We aren’t saying there is an opposite of authoritarianism which is extremist. We’re saying opposites like liberal vs conservative can be polarized to extremes, and the result of both is authoritarianism.
For example, a lot of Republicans try to ban books on homosexuality, trans people, etc. from libraries / public schools. There are also a lot of Republicans who seem support some racist political policies.
That leads to extremist views from the other side as well. For example, some software development companies ban the use of the word “master” for the main Git branch. This was the standard name since the beginning of time for Git, and was used in the context of it being the source of truth, like “master’s degree” or “master blacksmith”. It has absolutely nothing to do with a master / slave relationship, and isn’t racist in any way. Yet a LOT of people argue that it doesn’t matter - if someone feels uncomfortable about the word being used, we shouldn’t use it.
I think that’s a form of authoritarianism as well. Both examples are uneducated people who dislike something wanting to see it banned for everyone due to their own ignorance. It doesn’t matter that the second example is trying to be socially/ racially conscious. They’re wrong, uneducated, and trying to impose their own beliefs on others due to ignorance.
The less extreme approach to educate people more, and for people to calm down, have open, constructive discussions. Trying to understand the person you perceive as an enemy can be very rewarding for both parties and for society in general.
Oh no. No no no. The problem here is that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about… well, a bunch of things. Let’s break some of this down…
Glad that you understand this. Let’s set this as our baseline.
What is the “other side” here? The opposite of authoritarianism is egalitarianism. Maybe you are thinking “conservatives vs liberals” - but both of those things are right wing. You seem to be considering only a very narrow window of political ideology… and that entire window is right of center.
Sweet jesus. Choosing your naming conventions is not a ban. Dear God. I am godsmacked by how absolutely out-of-touch and off-base this entire rant is. This is not even a political issue. Wow. Nobody is passing laws demanding software developers follow certain naming conventions. And if you don’t see how the terms master-slave could be seen as icky and therefore people might opt for using different terms for their own projects… well, my dude, that is on you and only you. Wow. Just… WOW.
No. Wow. Just no. Not even close. See above.
Oh my god. This keeps getting worse. You keep using words like “ignorant” and “uneducated” but you just EXPLICITLY misrepresented software developers voluntarily choosing their own naming conventions and AT THE SAME TIME conflated it with formal, on-the-books laws banning books and oppressing vulnerable minorities. I just… I can’t even… this is so deeply irrational and clueless… ignorant and uneducated even… there is nowhere for me to even BEGIN. You are flinging insults while proudly and loudly exemplifying the very things you are accusing others of…
So here’s a little bit of that education you’re asking for: The Republican and Democratic parties are both RIGHT WING PARTIES. Liberals are right-wing enablers who pretend to support left-wing ideals only insofar as they can use those to their personal benefit. The political spectrum goes far beyond the DNC in terms of leftism. You are spouting rightist propaganda and I think you don’t even realize it. You’ve been duped.
Rightism is about consolidating power and authority. It’s natural extremes are monarchism, oligarchy, dictatorship, and the like. Many things called leftist are explicitly rightist… see literally any country who current does (or ever has) called themselves communist. Did the state wither away? No? Not communist. Nationalizing everything under a single leader or ruling class is still rightist. Even a “benevolent monarchy” is still rightist.
Leftism is egalitarian. The power and authority belongs to the people. Consolidation is not tolerated. Because wealth and power are the same thing, both are Constitutionally regulated. Representative systems must be kept limited as a ruling class must never be tolerated. Wealth hoarding must never be tolerated. It’s natural “extremes” are anarchism, direct democracy, and self-organized communism.
Between those is an infinitely complex web of systems and ideologies that try to balance freedom and liberty (leftism) with stability (rightism).
With this background you can start to see that, in American politics, you have extreme rightists (Republicans) and right-leaning centrists (Democrats). Leftists - actual leftists (like myself) - tend to vote democrat only because we have no other choice. If someone thinks it’s okay to ban books, to deny others medical care, to deny others basic human rights, to restrict others personal freedoms when they do not infringe on or affect anyone else… then there is no dialogue or discussion to be had.
There is no compromise or meeting in the middle on such subjects.
There is no “misunderstanding” nor any situation where “maybe the fascists have a good reason for putting their metaphorical boot on my throat”.
We do NOT surrender rights, freedoms, or liberties. You do not compromise on them. We do not discuss compromising them. Those who would oppress others in such a way have declared war on their fellow humans and countrymen. Until the attacks end, there is no room for dialogue.
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