• brbposting@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      204·
      11 hours ago

      Thanks tech, did not appreciate the original post b/c of how lightly it treats the killing of wonderful beautiful birbs

    • thepreciousboar@lemm.ee
      328·
      13 hours ago

      “Outdoor cats” are just cats. They are not a domesticated species, hunting is their instinct, and should just not be introduced in places where they wreck havoc to the environment. Where they are endemic (Europe and continental Asia) they don’t cause troubles to the ecosystem

      • priapus@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        112·
        7 hours ago

        As long as you spend time providing your cat proper enrichment to express their hunting instincts, an indoor cat will be just as happy as an outdoor cat.

        • thepreciousboar@lemm.ee
          32·
          5 hours ago

          In my experience it highly depends on the cat. Some are perfectly content with proper scratchers and toys inside, some just visibly suffer staying inside, it might help we are far from the busy city with plenty of green and huntable animals, but most of our cats spend ~80% of time outdoor during summer and ~30% during winter.

          • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
            92·
            4 hours ago

            most of our cats spend ~80% of time outdoor during summer and ~30% during winter.

            put a camera on them if you think they’re not killing birds. seriously.

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
        203·
        10 hours ago

        Wrong. Outdoor cats pose a significant risk to birds in Europe as well, especially because Europe has massively reduced the habitat of wildlife in recent centuries.

        Cats found 200-500 meters away from any property are shot by hunters in Germany. Between 2007 and 2022 over 160,000 cats were killed in just 5/16 German states (the remaining one’s don’t publish numbers).

      • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world
        37·
        6 hours ago

        Nobody minds them when they’re catching rats.

        Domestic cats arent the problem; ferals are…usually from owners who abandon them.

        We dont have a bird shortage by any stretch…they come and eat the leftover cat food.

        • Solumbran@lemmy.world
          2·
          3 hours ago

          I definitely do mind, as much as when they kill birds or even insects.

          A pet shouldn’t be allowed to murder all day long.

      • Lemminary@lemmy.world
        81·
        2 hours ago

        It’s reasonable to be scared apprehensive of contributing to the extinction of a few species.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.worldEnglish
        121·
        5 hours ago

        What you’ve presented is a deeply biased opinion piece, and it wears this immense bias on its sleeve. It fearmongers that thinking about cats as killing wildlife could cause “extremism” (it then cites as its lone example a man who suggested banning cats in New Zealand; soooo scary). It cites some organization called “Alley Cat Allies” who call it extremely biased with ostensibly zero credentials. They cite lobbyist and serial sexual harasser Wayne Pacelle formerly of the Humane Society who questions the methodology but even concedes: “We don’t quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big.” And lastly, King herself does her own analysis on this meta-analysis’ methodology despite being – I emphasize – a professor of anthropology with no background in this field.

        So your article has no one familiar with this field who could challenge if these statistical assumptions are actually reasonable. And here, given the authors are experts (and absent some published literature rebutting this in the 12 years since), I have no reason to believe their methodology would be so off as to meaningfully change the idea that “outdoor cats” are severely problematic.

        • ComicalMayhem@lemmy.world
          4·
          5 hours ago

          I want you to know that I read through and appreciate this in depth write up and critique of the previous person’s source/citation.

        • A7thStone@lemmy.world
          11·
          5 hours ago

          Mine was a deeply biased opinion piece, and yours weren’t full of emotionally charged imagery and language? OK

          • TheTechnician27@lemmy.worldEnglish
            4·
            4 hours ago

            Here’s the key:

            • The first source I use is just a scoentific article. That’s it.
            • The third source is just a scientific article. That’s it.
            • The second source that I use to cite “dozens of extinctions” is quite emotionally charged, but here’s where that’s different: I could find a billion sources more credible than that NYT article about the dozens upon dozens of species who’ve met their end thanks to the domestic cat. These sources would give it an unemotional, academic treatment, yet I like how the NYT piece is narratively engaging rather than dry-ass “X et al. reported…”

            I used scientific sources for (1) and (3) because those are claims people might actually think to contest. Moreover, the NYT doesn’t let itself slip into using garbage sources for the sake of its narrative. I could replace this source in two minutes, and then your argument about emotionally charged imagery would dissolve.

            The reason I care so much about King’s massive bias in that article is because that bias is reflected in how absolutely egregious her sources are. She seems to genuinely not care how factual what she’s saying is as long as it conforms to her personal feelings, and so she turns it into assembling literally every source she can possibly find no matter how obscenely flimsy. She’s grasping at straws the entire article.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.worldEnglish
        10715·
        20 hours ago
        • I don’t think most people’s backyard is some kind of wildlife exclusion zone, and the problem isn’t specifically that cats are killing animals in other backyards that the neighbors called “dibs” on first.
        • The cat obviously isn’t being attended to while it’s outside.
        • The owners clearly imply that their other two cats have done the same thing and brought them dead animals before.
        • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
          4·
          4 hours ago

          • Cats don’t give a fuck about ‘property lines’. Period.

          • Cats will kill even when they don’t need to feed. Lock them up.

          • I love our cat, and I don’t want to see it squished in half by a car. I keep it inside. It’s a rescue, I know it was an outdoor cat before. It’s fine now.

          • Luffy@lemmy.ml
            241·
            15 hours ago

            Then why are you trying to convince us that you cant convince anyone?

            Your whole argument is a paradox

          • TheTechnician27@lemmy.worldEnglish
            462·
            19 hours ago

            We’re going through the biggest disinformation crisis in human history thanks exclusively to the Internet’s profound ability to change minds by spreading and normalizing bullshit, but “it’s just not gonna work” when it’s something you specifically don’t want to hear.

            Edit: ironically, my mind was changed after hearing someone bring this up on the Internet and then reading the scientific literature.

            • NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
              223·
              19 hours ago

              Yes, but disinformation being spread far and wide isn’t the same as a single commenter on the internet trying keep people from letting cats outdoors. And for the record, I agree, letting cats outside isn’t good for the environment. Just pointing out you’re not gonna change a lot of minds.

              • Nihility@lemmy.world
                172·
                19 hours ago

                Doesn’t have to be a lot. Even one changed mind for the positive is a gain. Simple as.

          • Dharma Curious (he/him)@slrpnk.net
            381·
            19 hours ago

            Well… Not entirely true. It was a comment not dissimilar to the one at the top of this thread that made me realize we shouldn’t be keeping cats outdoors. We had always had the indoor/outdoor cat and never really thought anything about it. After that comment and doing a little research all of our cats became indoor cats from then on.

        • chellomere@lemmy.world
          41·
          16 hours ago

          My dad actually did this with their patio. It’s fenced in with a 2.5m high net. Of course, this assumes the cat in question is docile enough to not want to climb it, which their current cat happens to be.

          The whole reason for the fenced patio is because of their previous cat, which became blind at old age. So she could then still safely explore the outdoors.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
            81·
            14 hours ago

            You can do this, true. However, this obviously isn’t true for this post because it implies it’s normal for the other cats to bring in dead animals, which probably wouldn’t happen in a screened in patio.

          • Jhex@lemmy.world
            2·
            14 hours ago

            that’s amazing! we currently keep ours indoors but i have plans for a catio

    • brvslvrnst@lemmy.ml
      2218·
      21 hours ago

      While I understand the sentiment, its a hard line. I waffle with it being sometimes impossible to avoid.

      With that said, my parents have an outdoor cat still going from my middle school days; he’s currently 23 y/o, and still able to hold his own. I’m always impressed visiting because I expect to hear he passed when in fact he’s yelling about wet food not being available when he’s makes his appearance. Most of his days are spent laying on their back porch, and I’m insanely jealous of how full and long of a life he’s experienced.

      • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
        103·
        14 hours ago

        It is far from impossible to avoid. If you can’t control a cat and keep them indoors then you shouldn’t have a cat. It’s as easy as that.

        If you have a kid and let them run in the road, no one will accept your excuse that it’s just too hard. You either shouldn’t have had a kid or you need to take responsibility for them, or have them taken from you. The same applies to a cat.

        • brvslvrnst@lemmy.ml
          1·
          27 minutes ago

          I’m a waffler from way back, and the wording in that sentence I waffled on the “right” description for where I fell into.

          Since being in my own and having multiple days, I don’t think it’s completely impossible for me. I let our cats out with our supervision so they can roll in the grass and enjoy the outdoors; then, we bring them right back in.

          My parents never want to get rid of cats, so if any of them were not able to “properly behave” indoors they would be put out as a barn cat. Was it wrong to do that? To them, they’re still caringv and care for the cat, they just didn’t like its behavior. This also was in a small town where going to the pound likely meant kill shelter.

          To date, they’ve rescued around 15 cats from off the street, and about 3/4 stayed in the house.

          Nuance and all that jazz.

      • TheTechnician27@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4213·
        19 hours ago
        • It is categorically not ever “impossible to avoid”. Not only is your cat statistically healthier indoors, but any excuse for why it’s not possible is complete bullshit unless you can offer one up that isn’t. Owning a pet is a responsibility, not a right; just because it’s “harder” to take proper care of your pet doesn’t absolve you of that responsibility.
        • Anecdotes are not data. This is “I have a grandma who’s 106 and she smokes 26 packs a day and drinks a pint of leaded gasoline before bed.”
        • grue@lemmy.world
          263·
          18 hours ago

          It is categorically not ever “impossible to avoid”.

          Exactly. It might be hard to keep a cat inside literally 100% of the time, but that’s not an excuse. My cat has run out the door or knocked out the window screen a couple of times and been outside for a few hours before we noticed and caught her, but that certainly doesn’t make her an “outdoor cat!”

      • That Weird Vegan@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        243·
        20 hours ago

        I mean, not everyone who smokes is gonna get cancer, but no one is gonnna say that smoking doesn’t have risks. Same with outside cats

    • chunes@lemmy.world
      2538·
      17 hours ago

      You should be aware this is an extremely American sentiment bordering on ignorant. Nowhere else in the world do you find people berating people for letting cats go outside.

      Even in America, you won’t find it. It’s only coming from chronically-online people who are afraid of everything.

      I’m sure if you could communicate the dangers to your cats, most of them would still choose to go outside. Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.

      • priapus@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        32·
        7 hours ago

        None of the shelters or adoption agencies near me will even let you get a cat if you don’t say it will be kept indoors on the papers. Cats can easily be given the same level of enrichment indoors by playing with them.

        Keeping your cat indoors is only cruel when you don’t care enough about them to play and provide enrichment to make them happy, in which case you shouldn’t have a cat.

      • Grangle1@lemm.ee
        11·
        14 hours ago

        While I agree that cats are fine outside (while supervised and/or staying within their own yard - a small harness and leash can do the job), cats are just as healthy and happy staying indoors. My own cat actually refuses to go outside despite enjoying looking out the window all the time. I tried taking him outside a couple times to get him some exercise and he absolutely hated it. Different cats enjoy different environments.

      • Cethin@lemmy.zipEnglish
        102·
        14 hours ago

        You’re absolutely wrong. They’re native to the region around Turkey, so it’s not really an issue there. Everywhere else, it is. Yeah, a lot of third world countries don’t give a shit because they have other problems to worry about. It doesn’t make it not an issue though, and many countries have issues caused by them.

      • throwawayacc0430@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        173·
        15 hours ago

        Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.

        Um… I guess the rescue I got my cat from is cruel for adding a “keep the cat indoor only” clause? 🤔

        Edit: I’m not taking a position on the indoor vs outdoor argument, just saying that its not exactly “cruel” to keep a cat indoors.

        • KAtieTot@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          3·
          10 hours ago

          I think that’s a YMMV depending on the cat. One of my cats constantly begs to go outside (he gets walks), the other refuses to leave the house.

      • TooManyFoods@lemmy.world
        183·
        17 hours ago

        I’ve heard it my whole life from my vets. I don’t know what you mean by “even in America you won’t find it”

      • tomkatt@lemmy.worldEnglish
        5·
        14 hours ago

        Years ago my indoor housecat would always try to rush out the back door whenever it was opened. One day she finally managed it and then wouldn’t come back in. Okay, shut the door. She proceeded to freak out and start yowling when we shut the door and left her out there for a few hours. Whatever, weather was nice and yard was enclosed.

        Let her in after a few hours when it got dark, and she stopped trying to bolt outside. Nobody suffered, cat finally appreciated her cushy indoor life, and that was a win.

      • multifariace@lemmy.world
        113·
        17 hours ago

        Humans along with their cats and pigs have done a lot of damage to biodiversity around the world. It’s just one element of the 6th mass extinction we are causing.