Finally someone that acknowledge that a harmful culture is not necessarily always worth preserving.👍
I sure hope China will become more politically democratic, but we must also acknowledge that China has made huge progress in improving conditions for their population these past 50 years. But I think the time for Communism has passed, or whatever it is they have in China.
On the other hand I don’t see the 1 party system as that much worse than a 2 party system. To make a real difference, it needs to be a functional democracy.
But the 1 single advantage China has over most democracies, is to NOT accept religious special pleading.
Now you are being stupid: What slaughtering is that?
The systematic control and surveillance of Tibetan monasteries by Chinese authorities represents one of the most calculated assaults on religious freedom in the modern world.
This is what it is about, and religious special pleading needs to fucking end. Especially when it’s harmful to children. You can abandon a religion, it’s not like for instance protection of nationality, gender or sex.
I’m talking about the Chinese people choosing to murder their own daughters at birth because the government attempted to implement strict population controls, and everyone wanted boys so they could make more money as adults.
If China actually cared about the people. Rather than forcing the monastery closed and them to abandon their religion/culture. They would simply offer to relocate them away from the monastery if they feared for their children.
Without children and followers to harness. The religion would die on its own. Even as the general culture would endure. China explicitly does not want that. China specifically is trying to oppress and eradicate cultural differences.
People are 100% Justified to call China out on this. And in doing so are not defending all of tibet’s actions. Two things can be wrong at the same time. All sides can be wrong at the same time. This is one of those cases. There is no defense of China or Tibet here. China is not doing this out of some goodness of their heart or humanitarian need. Simply their own selfish goals.
So you are saying that instead of closing the monastery, they should relocate the towns!
Are you aware how much people are against being relocated?
Also that’s like punishing the victim instead of the villain.
Well that’s just objectively false. Like it or not, religion is a hugely significant part of history, and it’s incredibly important for contextualization.
Besides, in the modern era, if it’s not hurting anyone, why do you care? Let them alone to do their thing in peace.
Superstition is also a large part of Steve Jobs history, it’s what killed him.
So would he have been better off if he had not been superstitious?
Exercising religious superstition is not culture, it’s stupidity that harm both society and the individual.
Stupidity is a significant part of our history, that doesn’t mean we should preserve stupidity.
A lot of culture, is irrational and or superstitious. Tibetan culture has a lot of that, Chinese culture as well and American culture is also no exception.
You may find that disagreeable and not worth preserving, and I’m even inclined to agree with that on many occasions. But who is to decide which parts of ones own culture can be done away with, if not the people practicing that culture?
Can I decide which parts of your culture don’t agree with MY values and take that away from you?
Yes but regarding culture people always talk about how we need to preserve culture, obviously we shouldn’t actively work to preserve stupidity.
And religion is stupid superstition and doesn’t deserve to be preserved, and where it is demonstrably harmful to others, it should definitely not be allowed.
It’s no different than Nazi propaganda and organisations being illegal in most countries.
Can I decide which parts of your culture don’t agree with MY values and take that away from you?
If parts of our culture is demonstrably harmful, it is in our own interests to remove those parts. Racism would be a good example. And we are working on it, but somehow people keep being racist.
Would that be worth taking away his autonomy and will without consent?
Make all the misguided excuses you want for what China is doing. It won’t make it right. It was wrong when the United States did it to my family. And it is wrong when China is doing it now.
If China wants to help them. Then offer them opportunity and choice. If the opportunities and choice are better. Their culture will adapt and change to it. Forcing eradication of their culture through violence will only breed resentment and grievance.
Would that be worth taking away his autonomy and will without consent?
Wow congratulations, first real argument in any response I’ve received until now.
But they are not really taking away his autonomy by closing the monastery, they are only putting an end to a harmful practice that is illegal.
Now the part about harmful may be a matter of opinion. But personally I believe religious practices are mostly harmful.
How is that not taking away autonomy? That’s kind of literally the definition of. They aren’t appealing for them to close the monastery on their own. They are forcing it.
You and I can both state plainly that the practices are harmful. And even justify the assertion. We would never subject ourselves to it by choice. But that’s the thing it has to be a choice. Give them other choices other opportunities. That is absolutely fine.
But the moment you enact your beliefs upon others through violence. It doesn’t matter if you are factually correct. You are no longer the “good guy”. You’ve lost the argument. If you cannot make the case for it on merits alone.
There is a very good reason concepts of imperialism and colonization are frowned upon these days. Why you don’t see many groups talking about going out and civilizing savages. These are the so-called “good intentions” that the proverbial road to Hell is paved with. The same sort of justification that they used to separate my grandmother from her family. And sent her to special schools. The kind that in many places often ended up with mass Graves of children.
Religious superstition is not culture worth preserving.
I’m glad we have you to tell us what is and isn’t culture worth preserving; we were at real risk of having a diversity of opinion for a moment there.
China’s artificial “culture” which was installed after slaughtering their own history, isn’t worth preserving.
Finally someone that acknowledge that a harmful culture is not necessarily always worth preserving.👍
I sure hope China will become more politically democratic, but we must also acknowledge that China has made huge progress in improving conditions for their population these past 50 years. But I think the time for Communism has passed, or whatever it is they have in China.
On the other hand I don’t see the 1 party system as that much worse than a 2 party system. To make a real difference, it needs to be a functional democracy.
But the 1 single advantage China has over most democracies, is to NOT accept religious special pleading.
Professing to the belief that slaughtering massive numbers of infant girls is an improvement of conditions, is a bit of a spicy take on these forums.
You can’t do something that fucked up and just expect the entire world to pretend it never happened.
Now you are being stupid: What slaughtering is that?
This is what it is about, and religious special pleading needs to fucking end. Especially when it’s harmful to children. You can abandon a religion, it’s not like for instance protection of nationality, gender or sex.
I’m talking about the Chinese people choosing to murder their own daughters at birth because the government attempted to implement strict population controls, and everyone wanted boys so they could make more money as adults.
That’s whataboutism and unrelated. Although I agree that was horrible.
If China actually cared about the people. Rather than forcing the monastery closed and them to abandon their religion/culture. They would simply offer to relocate them away from the monastery if they feared for their children.
Without children and followers to harness. The religion would die on its own. Even as the general culture would endure. China explicitly does not want that. China specifically is trying to oppress and eradicate cultural differences.
People are 100% Justified to call China out on this. And in doing so are not defending all of tibet’s actions. Two things can be wrong at the same time. All sides can be wrong at the same time. This is one of those cases. There is no defense of China or Tibet here. China is not doing this out of some goodness of their heart or humanitarian need. Simply their own selfish goals.
So you are saying that instead of closing the monastery, they should relocate the towns!
Are you aware how much people are against being relocated?
Also that’s like punishing the victim instead of the villain.
Lmao. Sorry, calling it unrelated isn’t going to make the world love China.
Which I don’t give a shit about, I’m just so fucking tired of people screaming about protecting harmful religious practices.
Well that’s just objectively false. Like it or not, religion is a hugely significant part of history, and it’s incredibly important for contextualization.
Besides, in the modern era, if it’s not hurting anyone, why do you care? Let them alone to do their thing in peace.
Superstition is also a large part of Steve Jobs history, it’s what killed him.
So would he have been better off if he had not been superstitious?
Exercising religious superstition is not culture, it’s stupidity that harm both society and the individual.
Stupidity is a significant part of our history, that doesn’t mean we should preserve stupidity.
People have a right to be stupid, though.
A lot of culture, is irrational and or superstitious. Tibetan culture has a lot of that, Chinese culture as well and American culture is also no exception.
You may find that disagreeable and not worth preserving, and I’m even inclined to agree with that on many occasions. But who is to decide which parts of ones own culture can be done away with, if not the people practicing that culture?
Can I decide which parts of your culture don’t agree with MY values and take that away from you?
Yes but regarding culture people always talk about how we need to preserve culture, obviously we shouldn’t actively work to preserve stupidity.
And religion is stupid superstition and doesn’t deserve to be preserved, and where it is demonstrably harmful to others, it should definitely not be allowed.
It’s no different than Nazi propaganda and organisations being illegal in most countries.
If parts of our culture is demonstrably harmful, it is in our own interests to remove those parts. Racism would be a good example. And we are working on it, but somehow people keep being racist.
Would that be worth taking away his autonomy and will without consent?
Make all the misguided excuses you want for what China is doing. It won’t make it right. It was wrong when the United States did it to my family. And it is wrong when China is doing it now.
If China wants to help them. Then offer them opportunity and choice. If the opportunities and choice are better. Their culture will adapt and change to it. Forcing eradication of their culture through violence will only breed resentment and grievance.
Wow congratulations, first real argument in any response I’ve received until now.
But they are not really taking away his autonomy by closing the monastery, they are only putting an end to a harmful practice that is illegal.
Now the part about harmful may be a matter of opinion. But personally I believe religious practices are mostly harmful.
How is that not taking away autonomy? That’s kind of literally the definition of. They aren’t appealing for them to close the monastery on their own. They are forcing it.
You and I can both state plainly that the practices are harmful. And even justify the assertion. We would never subject ourselves to it by choice. But that’s the thing it has to be a choice. Give them other choices other opportunities. That is absolutely fine.
But the moment you enact your beliefs upon others through violence. It doesn’t matter if you are factually correct. You are no longer the “good guy”. You’ve lost the argument. If you cannot make the case for it on merits alone.
There is a very good reason concepts of imperialism and colonization are frowned upon these days. Why you don’t see many groups talking about going out and civilizing savages. These are the so-called “good intentions” that the proverbial road to Hell is paved with. The same sort of justification that they used to separate my grandmother from her family. And sent her to special schools. The kind that in many places often ended up with mass Graves of children.