The thing is, one of the big root causes behind those fights is also a root cause of what makes Linux and FOSS so great: The devs care about the software and its users. Their priority is making the right decision for the application and its users. That’s a pretty stark contrast to certain other mainstream operating systems where the primary stakeholders are not the devs or the users – it’s some third party a thousand miles away who only cares whether the dev teams’ decisions sprinkle a few more dollar bills on top of their cash mountain.
I’m not part of those fights and defending them, btw. I just use Mint and appreciate their efforts!
More like:
That why linux is great, it open-sources its drama so everyone can enjoy it
We ❤️ drama 🐧
Ok what is it this time? What did I miss
Me following the recent bcachefs drama
(Kent is objectively in the wrong & slightly bat shit, if you follow his many discussions in various forums where he defends himself)
which is so upsetting because dear FUCK does FOSS need a modern FS
I don’t get it, what’s wrong with btrfs? It’s working great for Synology, OpenSuse uses it too
Better yet, what’s wrong with ext4 lol
it seems to have the reputation of not being the most reliable FS out there, apparently even causing data loss in some instances. In my experience tho it’s been great, it’s snapshot feature has saved me whenever a new kernel would break my broadcom wifi chip
Most btrfs issues I’ve read of have actually been caused by hardware problems: bad RAM, raid-0 faulty disk
I did find a bug that probably only arch users had to deal with on the most latest kernel. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Btrfs-Log-Tree-Corruption-Fix
It does, but it doesn’t look like Kent will get his shit together. He cannot accept that he might be in the wrong.
Me, a new Linux convert, watching all the infighting over minutiae:
“I love a good sitcom!”
“Oh, what’s your favourite? Friends? Seinfeld? Fesh Pince?”
“None, it’swayland-protocols”A sitcom about linux developers who constantly argue about minutia could actually be fun if written correctly. They could borrow a bunch of real life incidents and write them in.
GNOME: “…and that’s why I think client-side decorations are the greatest. What do you guys think?”
The camera zooms out to reveal all other desktop environments staring, stone-faced, at GNOME. After a moment, KDE speaks up:
“You really can’t help putting your foot in your mouth.”
Laugh track plays at 300% volume, followed by the Seinfeld outro.
Make the seinfeld outro deep fried, like that thomas the tank engine tune and you got yourself a deal buckaroo
Reminds me of the tabs vs spaces thing from silicon valley
There’s a Youtube channel that mostly just follows the wayland bug tracker.
Please link?
Ouch, I don’t follow him, YT just sends me the videos all the time.
It’s officially about Linux, so I’m not sure I’ve got it right. I think it’s this one:
Be careful:
And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
It’s almost humanlike
This is the way. “I just use Linux” is what I always say.
I’m considered tech support for my team at work, their always saying things like “well you’re the Linux guy so you know how this stuff works”. And then I have to explain “I just use Linux, I don’t write the code, plus these are windows machines so it’s completely different issues, and lastly I just type the problem into Google read the results and then tell you what I read”
Them: well you are still tech support because I don’t know how to do that.
Me: wait you don’t know how to type into Google…no you know what fine, I’m tech support, tell management so I can get a raise.
Hi, former tech support (now cybersecurity) here. You /are/ tier one tech support. You handle it pretty much how they do, knowledge base documents and searching for solutions online. If things get really bad they might poke around directly and see if they can find a root cause before they escalate.
That doesn’t mean they can demand you do anything, but it does mean you shouldn’t underestimate yourself :)
Hey thanks. I had always heard the joke that the majority of tech support was knowing how to phrase Google searches, but thought it was a joke…I get the sense it’s more a funny fact.
Funny enough, I’ve done the poking around bit too, both in person and more commonly now remotely. And yeah nobody has demanded anything… so far, lol. If I’m busy, or just have no clue what they’re talking about, I just say that to them and tell them to call our outsourced help desk. So far everyone just drops their head and accepts my answer then makes the call and spends the next 2 to 3 hours deciding if they really need this job.
What, with all those non-Linux users asking questions and all.
It beats the alternative of Microsoft’s support forums where thousands comment for weeks straight INCLUDING paid Indian “representatives” who ask for user diagnostic tool output, copy/pasting the same reply eleventeen thousand times a day, on a post from 8 years ago BUT not a single person has ever posted their solution EXCEPT “I reinstalled Windows.”
have you tried running sfc /scannow ?
oh, it succeeded? uh, run dism /online anway, that should work
This was such a frustrating experience. I could probably count on one hand how many times I found a useful solution that wasn’t just copy paste
Linux users are peaceful* and level-headed*.
* barring discussions about Wayland, X11’s obsolescence, Systemd, Pipewire, Rust in the kernel, or even UEFI at times
you forgot nvidia
there’s a debate about NVidia ?
I think it’s more of a consensus than a debate for those who had an nvidia card. a bunch of things don’t work as they should, because nvidia drivers are bad.
Don’t forget arch btw
It’s NixOS and CachyOS these days.
Do you even nix, bro? I have Nix on my company issued Windows laptop inside WSL, btw.
Do you even NixOS bro? I have NixOS on my personal issued Thinkpad inside
/, btw.
I tried to use Wayland. My windows flickered to black. I switched to X11. No issue. I’ll try Wayland again next year. -casual Linux user
Tried it on PopOS and wondered how anyone could use it at all. Installed fedora on a different machine and it’s flawless. Probably just the age of PopOS at this point.
Narrator voice: “Six years later, they still haven’t tried it again.”
I try every year and every year I get a different result. Currently on Wayland, next year’s update might force me back to X.
Love the Wayland stability.
Slic3r doesn’t work on it.
No idea of why. (But I suspect it’s about the several monitors thing.) Will probably try again in a year or 5.
I don’t know what kind of program it is, but if it works on X11, you could try forcing it to run inside Xwayland by unsetting the
WAYLAND_DISPLAYvariable. I’ve had to do this with Qt Creator because dockable windows didn’t work at the time on Wayland.env --unset=WAYLAND_DISPLAY DISPLAY=:0 /path/to/progSlic3r? Original Slic3r? Why are you still using that?
It takes longer to configure a newer slicer than to test if the old one works in wayland :)
When I need something more advanced, like customized supports, I’ll migrate. Didn’t happen yet.
Forget features, just the basic path generator is so much better in the newer variants
variable width extrusions are great, you can get a whole lot more detail in thin areas just automatically now
There’s also tree supports (usually less material and much easier to design for and remove), lightning infill (weak infill for non-structural models)
maybe some other features that i’m forgetting
UEFI is OK. Try mentioning Secure Boot.
Even UEFI has its haters, and they’re calling for a return to BIOS in the aftermath of the Gigabyte UEFI vulnerability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTjj1ILCwRs (scroll through the comments)
fuck the bios stage, just load grub from firmware
UEFI is a standard. The implementation of it depends on the manufacturer.
Do users care about Rust in the kernel? The others all make sense.
You bet. Not many, but they are extremely
passionateemotional about it. They mostly grace the anti-intellectual cesspools with their presence (twitter and such).I used to be like that, about two years ago, mainly because of some bad experiences with compiling Rust programs from source. Then I realized that I’m literally never going to be affected by it since I never compile the kernel myself. Now I’m learning Rust myself.
If anything, the memory safe Rust should be encouraged…
It’s not just about memory safety, honestly. Rust is a modern programming language. C is a fucking fossil buried in a tar pit of unmaintained libraries and workarounds. A newly minted programmer won’t likely choose C as their primary language when things like C#, Python, and Rust are available (I work in a university, I see what our students do), and the current generation of C-only maintainers will eventually retire, with nobody to replace them. Being openly hostile and abusive against Rust will hurt the kernel in the long term.
This is the Dreadnought effect once again. A new thing appears that thoroughly changes the landscape, and the people who can’t adapt push back with fear and violence. Crossbows and arbalests have been effective for centuries, who needs this ridiculous new “gun” thing?
I mean, take a look at it from their POV: You’ve spent decades building this and suddenly new people come in and want to change very fundamental things in the project. Replacing them with something you don’t know and don’t want to learn.
Change must be slow and steady and shouldn’t make the original developers feel like they’re being pushed out.
Both sides are severely lacking in considering the people on the other side.
change very fundamental things in the project
That’s not what’s happening. Right now, modules written in Rust are completely independent from modules written in C. If a Rust module wants to interact with a C module, it has to use that module’s API, as it is intended. If that API changes, the Rust module has to adapt to it. Nobody is forcing C developers to change anything they don’t want to. In the latest tantrum, a kernel developer called Christoph Hellwig was exposed sabotaging Rust projects: he was NACKing Rust PRs that interacted with the DRM API even though they touched none of the code he was maintaining, nor required any changes be made by a C developer. In the fallout, two Asahi/ARM developers left the mainline kernel, and one of them retired completely because of burnout.
Wrong opinions can exist if they are formed using incorrect assumptions. Hellwig had no right to sabotage the Rust projects, and certainly no right to call Rust-for-Linux developers a cancer on the LKML.
People make it sound like its some extreme time consuming task to learn rust. Rust actually gives helpful compiler errors tho and there’s a lot of resources online.
I was able to start making some basic things in rust (like an ascii-rendered brute force n-body simulation) with the help of a few google searches after just like 2 days of messing around in my free time. I’m sure reading kernel stuff requires much more advanced knowledge than what I have but it’s really not a large barrier.
They are using a shitty language that does almost nothing for them and doesn’t guarantee the final binary will do anything close to what the source implies. There’s no sides to this. It’s just reality.
If they aren’t trying to migrate away from it, it’s not good. If they actively insist on harassing the people trying to help them migrate away from it, they are the problem.
Well, you should probably read the last sentence of my previous comment, it does apply here as well.
What’s great about the drama is you can just ignore it and everything still works.
It’s like going to a restaurant for a particular atmosphere. Just another Tuesday here. Eat your meal and move along.
Fighting means that you care.
I love the drama :3… gives me a great sense of schadenfreude. Unless the devs whose side im on are losing the debate
Then it gives me a great sense of rage. Either way, dopamine
In a few decades we’ll have Linux rainbow press delivering the newest (partially made-up) drama of Linux celebs and influencers to the senior Linux users sitting in their electric FOSS rocking chairs, talking about the good ol’ days with X11, SysVinit and no god damn sandboxing or immutability.
And they’ll feel ALIVE thanks to it.
I think it’s mostly the other way around. The developers are chill while the user base frothing with tribalism
I think the tribalism is mostly in jest. I’ve never actually seen two Linux users seriously fighting over their preferred distro or init system or whatever.
Distro? No. Wayland? Yes…
Agreed also most of that i think comes from people thinking X is my preference but it comes out X is the best period with the “for me” being implied but not heard by the other party.
It’s both.
Christoph Hellwig, a kernel contributor, and a bunch of anti-Rust fossils, were sabotaging Rust-for-Linux projects for using their C APIs for months until Torvalds intervened, and have been actively hostile and abusive against R4L contributors until they left the project. Summary by Aussie Linux Man.
XLibre, headed by a… shall we say, interesting figure, has attracted a rabid fanbase who are frothing at the mouth and calling Wayland woke DEI garbage that will destroy Linux. The first day of the git repo saw threats of gun violence, the antisemitic (((triple parenthesis))) dog whistle, openly transphobic statements by non-developers, and the owner’s commitment to allow all of that under the banner of being “non-political”. More context here, in the comments.
XLibre, headed by a… shall we say, interesting figure
Still better than IBM/Redhat, tbh
I dunno. As a supporter of Asahi from the week the Patreon was launched, I’m pretty bummed that the lead dev got disheartened and dropped off. Kernel devs protecting fiefdoms (by blocking Rust adoption) do not a happy user make (for me).
I love it when old crusty maintainers obstruct the progress of memory safe (read: Rust) code in the Linux Kernel!!!
Then venting your frustrations about that on Mastodon gets you labeled a brigading “maybe you are the problem” by Linus ((:
