Need this nationwide. I hate having fees added on to the price of what I’m ordering.
Do it like in Europe. Prices are all inclusive, any kind of tip is just a thank you for outstanding service, and not a necessity so the waitress won’t starve.
It is a sales business with service, like buying clothes. Can you imagine having to tip the salesperson in a boutique?
It really depends on the country. France and Belgium, as you wrote. Germany, they expect a tip and look at you angry if you don’t. Italy, they add a service charge at the end that is nowhete advertised. Turkey, they invent a random price at the end, complaints only taken if you’re local. (I’m slightly exaggerating)
In Germany it’s typical to do so just to make the change easier, you might catch an angry glance by making them make small change.
Italy will list a coperto or servizio on the menu.
I was just in a smaller city in Germany and flew back to the US after that. I look German and speak German. When paying with card, Germany felt exactly like the US. At every restaurant, the tip request automatically came up within the thing used to process your card, just like in the US.
Italy, they add a service charge at the end that is nowhete advertised.
It’s called the Pane & Coperto (or just Coperto Fee) and typically amounts to a cover charge to enter, regardless of what you order.
Honestly not the worst way to run a restaurant, given that every table costs some baseline amount of labor and resources to tend.
We need European pricing where the price is the price. I would go as far as making asking for a tip illegal too. Have restaurants put on their menu that prices include the tip. Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers.
And not just for restaurants, everything, from airline tickets to concert tickets, etc.
I think clear signage and message on the bill indicating “tipping is optional, service charges is included in the menu price” should suffice.
Making tipping illegal goes too far, but I am okay with implementing it for couple decades, in order to correct a bad habit.
Yeah, tipping is pretty messed up. In a lot of states, wait staff are exempt from the minimum wage because they’re expected to treat tips (which are notoriously unreliable) as part of their salary.
Generally, as here in CO, there is still a minimum wage for staff that are regularly tipped, it’s just lower. I believe it’s also (again, as here) generally required that any time the tipping doesn’t make up the difference, companies are required to make it up instead.
That being said, it’s basically a way to advertise much lower prices than they actually charge. Roles that often get tipped tend to make pretty good money, and companies would basically never want to pay that much for those roles (especially when they are used to paying even less than minimum wage).
Weave backed ourselves into a corner for tipping. Restaurants may be convinced to pay a livable wage. But they’re never going to pay the servers what they can actually make in tips.
I was about 5 years into IT, My girlfriend was waiting tables at Ruby Tuesday. Most days she made more than I did. And depending on how bad they ‘adjusted’ their tax claims …
That said, some days she did basically pay to work there.
I suspect if you ask the vast majority of wait staff if they would like to be paid and livable wage or continue a tip-based system they want to stay tip based.
Good for her, but arguably it’s not supposed to be a high paying job. A living wage, sure, but higher than a job that you presumably studied for and required relatively uncommon knowledge seems wrong.
So I guess the answer is no, we wouldn’t expect restaurants to work out how much people get paid in tips and match it, it would be a liveable wage and if the current workers don’t like it they would leave.
I don’t know that your girlfriend getting bankrolled is common across the industry either, tips rely on high traffic and customers with big pockets. Most wait staff don’t brag about how rich they are.
I think that’s very dependent on age. When I was in my early twenties, an inconsistent gig with the potential for high tips was very appealing. When I got into my late twenties/early thirties I moved over to events and catering because they offered a high hourly wage with predictable(ish) hours. If the restaurants pay well enough they’ll be able to find people.
The real problem will be vacation towns. There are some places where most of the restaurants and bars close in the off-season. The staff will work their asses off through the spring and summer, then use their tips to live the rest of the year. For some of these towns, even if the restaurant staff wanted to pick up a job in the off-season, they’d need to drive two hours just to find a part-time gig at Target. I really want tipping to end, but I’m not sure what would happen to these places. The seasonal restaurants could pay more, but I’m not sure they could offer enough to subsidize their staff for half the year.
How’s that any different? You’d get fewer takers for a seasonal job, so shouldn’t pay go up? Just like they now get disproportionate tips, shouldn’t they get a disproportionate living wage?
I’m not sure it will scale properly. Tipping might outpace sales in towns like that, and I’m not really sure what the economics are in maintaining seasonal restaurant. And if there are fewer takers for seasonal jobs, the employers could pay more theoretically, but in the restaurant industry, fewer servers means slower service. Slower service means fewer sales, fewer sales means less profit, and less profit means lower pay. I think places like this would require a UBI program to maintain how they currently operate without tips.
Only fees that are entirely optional — like leaving a tip for staff — can be left out of the posted price.
Wrong move. They should have outlawed tipping too. No more hiring for shit wages and leaving adequate compensation up to chance. Bump up the menu price and pay your staff an enticing salary.
Agreed, but overall a good move to address separate and much simpler issue of predatory pricing (for the customer)
Heading to mother’s day lunch right now, set menu for $89 per person. Except it’s a 10% surcharge on Sundays, the only day that mother’s day is, so that price isnt really true at all.
This in Aus which I’d normally argue has better common-sense policies such as requiring sales tax in the menu price
You don’t need to ban tipping. Several countries don’t have a tipping culture and that’s because the waiters are paid adequately for their work. Tipping is seen as a bonus after exceptionally good service.
The US should raise the minimum wage for restaurant workers and not make it the customer’s responsibility to make sure the waiter can pay their rent.Tipping culture has metastasized in the US. It won’t go away on its own.
Not disagreeing, just providing a counterpoint.
Take your basic non super fancy restaurant, dinner for two with appetizers, entrees, desserts, a two rounds of drinks will probably be $100ish. And that table of two will be there for an hour. Assuming server gets 20% tip average, that’s $20 for the table. An average server will have four tables in their sections. That means if the restaurant is full, they are making $80 an hour in tips. They will get to keep 60% to 80% of that, the rest going in a tip pool that benefits kitchen staff, bussers, barbacks, etc. But they’ll still be making pretty good money.
Of course if the restaurant is empty or they only have one or two tables with people seated, they are making less.
The problem comes that if you get rid of this system, there’s a lot of financial risk for the restaurant owner. Currently they don’t have to pay the server or the staff very much, most of their compensation comes from tips, meaning there is less risk to them keeping the restaurant fully staffed if it’s not going to be busy. If you pay all these people are constant hourly, now there is risk on the restaurant owner in terms of staffing. Bring on too many staff when it’s quiet and they will lose a bundle. Don’t bring on enough staff when it’s busy and those people don’t have a financial incentive to bust their ass. It also becomes solely their job to ensure quality, because the server that spends half the time on their phone in the back room is making the same money as the server who is attentive to their tables. It also means less risk for hiring an inexperienced server, because if the server does a bad job they just won’t make good tips.
All that said, I agree something has to change. I think perhaps one answer would be a law requiring that each restaurant put 15% of gross receipts into a virtual tip pool. That way they aren’t paying through the nose to staff and empty restaurant, there would be a line item on the check like ‘automatic gratuity paid the staff $whatever on this check, further tipping is optional’.
dinner for two with appetizers, entrees, desserts,
Why on earth would someone go out for dinner, have two starters, and then jump to dessert? 😂
Just in case this isn’t a joke, then this is probably a country difference. In America, “entree” is synonymous with “main course”. I know, I know. That’s not what entree means. But the fact remains.
Where im from ive never heard of that, entree is usually a starter snack to hold you over till the food is done. But this could also be a regional thing still.
It’s specifically the US that calls main courses entrees. No clue why.
Probably an imperial vs metric thing.
Ive never heard of that, and Im from SoCal. Shouldve made it clear im from the US but yeah never heard of folks calling an entree the full meal.
I am from Texas and have lived in several states in the eastern half of the US. “Entree” on a menu has always been the main dish in my experience. You also frequently see it used that way on recipe websites. This is the first I’ve heard that entree has a different meaning elsewhere. Merriam Webster has a bit of background info on how that came to be.
there’s a lot of financial risk for the restaurant owner
Risk for the business owner, what a concept. The workers aren’t there to defray risks for an owner, they’re doing a job. If the restaurant founder wants to push risk to their employees, make it a coop, then they can share in the profits as well as the risk.
Well if the risk is that they are paying $300 an hour in unnecessary labor, that’s a risk that would put almost any restaurant under. Perhaps a better answer would be a commission-based system, just build a 20% commission into the price of the food rather than making it a mandatory tip or a line item on the receipt. Problem is that makes marketing harder because you have to explain why your food is 20% more expensive than the competition and try to get people to understand that their bill will actually be the same or less. It also doesn’t necessarily incentivize the employee to provide better service. And while I conceptually agree that should be the responsibility of the manager, in practice it’s difficult. I’m not sure what the solution is. I agree there needs to be one.
A restaurant in my area recently put up signs saying they pay their staff a living wage, raised prices, and forbaid tips. More like this, please.
Meanwhile, most places in London pay at least the minimum wage (not lower for waitstaff, but not necessarily living wage) and tack on an optional 12-20% service charge, and don’t give it to staff.
You have to determine if the service charge goes to staff, awkwardly refuse the service charge, and (optionally) tip your waitstaff in cash (and if you do, ask they split it with back of house)
The times we’ve done it seems to make the staff happy. Still a shit thing to do.
They won’t make nearly as much as they did with tipping. I expect either tipping to come back to that place or the servers to leave for somewhere better.
Or they could, you know, just pay the servers a fair wage.
Yeah, maybe they’ll make $50/he. And maybe cops will fly.
Raising wages is what business do when they don’t want their employees to quit. It’s not some mythical thing that never happens.
Agreed. I hate tipping. Some tippers will hate for tipping to go away because they can use their charisma to make a lot of money. More power to them but tipping is just a way for these businesses to keep their labor low. Many other countries don’t have tipping and can still have restaurants. For some reason the US needs tipping to be able to have restaurants.
Some tippers will hate for tipping to go away because they can use their charisma to make a lot of money
The funny thing is even if restaurants are forced to pay a living wage and not have tips as a subsidy, these servers would actually still be able to do that. Maybe not AS much as before, but between that and an actual living wage is bet they still would come out ahead lol
A lot (not all) of workers in the service industry like tipping, actually. They get cash a lot of the time, which they like, and can under report on their taxes. Most people opposed to banning tipping, in my experience, are actually the people receiving the tips.
The real perk of getting tips in cash is not having to visit an ATM to buy drugs from each other
And yet many of those people are also the first to complain about having inconsistent paychecks. Funny how that works
Something tells me these same workers wouldn’t like tipping so much if people didn’t feel obligated to tip under threat of food tampering (real or imagined) or other threat/shame tactics.
I’m not a California resident but once on a visit I ate at a place. Paid the bill. No tip. Left. The shopkeeper chased me on the street to catch up and ask why I didn’t tip, and wasn’t the food good, etc. Embarrassed, I was with a friend who is a resident… I told her yes it was fine. “Then why no tip?!” Internally: Because it’s a tip? I didnt get some kind of exceptional service there. If anything they left us alone really. So what was I tipping for exactly? why not just charge a different price, etc. Externally: “Oh I’m sorry. I didn’t know”
Yeah, but you know how the system works, so you intentionally stiffed someone out of their income. Regardless of if the system is correct or just it exists and you don’t get to just opt out without being a gigantic asshole.
Ok… Thanks for your input I guess, but as a European, the practice of tipping isn’t ingrained in my culture as it may be in yours. Frankly, I find it bizarre and from the outside I also see many in your own culture find it bizarre also. If not downright predatory of businesses on customers.
Why not? If the waitron is counting on an “optional” tip and doesn’t get it, maybe they have more incentive to insist on fair pay or move along. … that’s what I say to myself , anyway, as I’m leaving the tip
If I go to McDonald’s and they serve me food. I don’t tip them. the same thing happened at that smaller restaurant. If all they did is walk the food to my table and that’s it, then why am I tipping some percent extra for them to walk the plates 3 meters (~15 feet)?
Isn’t it fun how “the price should just be the price” makes you a filthy commie in 2024?
Honestly i never see any resistance to these kinds of steps forward
I do, but I also live in Bible Belt eagle fuckin rural America. Most of the people in my “city” live for every bad idea you can muster -
Like how practically half of this city exists explicitly on the far side of the city line, so they can dodge taxes while using the city’s infrastructure to get around (and then bitch about the state of the city’s infrastructure cause of course they do.)
Only fees that are entirely optional — like leaving a tip for staff — can be left out of the posted price.
How do you say you’ve never worked as a server without saying you’ve never worked as a server?
Edit: I think there’s a misunderstanding. I’m commenting on describing tips as “entirely optional.” If you can’t afford to tip, don’t eat at a restaurant. Servers are paid below minimum wage because they receive tips.
Second edit: My bad. NY has a tip allowance, and that’s where I waited. I didn’t know it varied so greatly from state to state. California does, in fact, pay their servers $16 per hour minimum.
https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/minimum-wage-tipped-employees-by-state/
Don’t take the downvotes too seriously. Your original point was succinct and poignant. On average, lemmy bombs on anyone going against the popular stance. A whole lot of paper activism goes on here.
Your point is valid. Not tipping because “fuck the man” only serves to hurt the servers. From a moral consumer standpoint, there’s no winning. You either cut out restaurants entirely, which still fucks the wait staff, or you tip high and hope enough of it ends up in the their pockets.
I’m downvoting because he’s wrong about servers getting paid below minimum wage in California. That’s true in his shithole state but not ours.
Work a Sunday brunch shift and watch the raft of churchies leave nothing but condescending notes, if anything.
Holy shit. They give god 10% of their income. This server is “asking” for 18% of the price of their bill. They’re not even remotely the same thing.
I’m generally against tipping, but still do it. I’m way against illogical comparisons like this though.
It’s called tithing. It’s described as giving 10% of your income or possessions to god in the Old Testament.
I’m aware of tithing. I’m saying that 10% of your income in a tithe is not even remotely the same thing as 18% tip for a single purchase. It’s more comparable to a sales tax than a tithe. One is percentage of a total income, the other is a percentage of a purchase.
i thought you weren’t meant to use the lord’s name in vain
Servers are paid below minimum wage because they receive tips.
Not true everywhere. For instance Washington requires servers be paid the full minimum wage of $16.28/hr before tips.
California, ie the state this fucking article is about, also mandates the full minimum wage for servers.
Restaurants should be forced to pay their workers a living wage, which is how it works in developed countries. And paying below minimum wage should be illegal.
it’s such a fucking joke that they’re allowed to pay like $2/hr because they’ll make it up in tips. just because customers are nice doesn’t mean the employer should get off the hook like that. even the joke federal minimum wage is fuck all, that’s like 1-2 sides at a decent restaurant
Yeah, Cali can shut its mouth. Tourists, look at your resort bill or hotel bill next time you pay. See if everything was baked into advertised price.
Yeah… Maybe it should be that way for resorts or hotels too??
Lol, what a weird take
Why is that a weird take? Seems to me the price should be the price across the board.
Yeah, that’s the reasonable take.
Badbytes was siggesting that because hotels do this, restaurants should be allowed to do this.
This might be a weird question but when people tip for a good service, what exactly is good service?
If I go to a restaurant I expect them to take my order, bring me the food and when I’m done bring me the check. That’s it. I want nothing else from them. Should I tip them for not spitting in my food or not stumbling and throwing it all over my clothes?
If I go to a restaurant I expect them to take my order, bring me the food and when I’m done bring me the check. That’s it.
I’ve been to a Michelin Star restaurant where a pair of waiters were constantly hovering over your table to clean it and refill drinks and offer provide conversation.
The chef comes by and makes a presentation of every dish (the bananas foster was practically a magic act, the way they assembled the meal and then light it on fire). The staff practically wingman for you, if you’ve got a date. Everyone is beautiful and charming.
But that was something like $300/person just for the table, with 20% gratuity as a fixed fee on the final bill.
There are lots of restaurants that don’t charge through the nose for the meal but offer comparable service. Charming friendly waiters who weedle your favorite food and give excellent recommendations. Staff that sing or make clever jokes or entertain small children or share a cocktail with you at the table. I know a few high end restaurants in Houston that will try to pouch waiters from one another because they’re friends with particularly wealthy regulars.
You see less of that now (at least in the states) because individual waiters are expected to cover more tables, turnover is more important than relationship building, and the quality of food has taken a real nosedive as we replace professional chefs with meals made in microwaves.
Now a tip is much more like a Coperto - a cover charge for seating - than gratuity for exceptional service.
As a mildly introverted person, this sounds like hell. I’d pay a tax to be left alone
A good waiter who earns his tip will have the skill to recognize that you want to be left alone, and will serve you quickly and efficiently and unobtrusively. Good waitstaff will quickly figure out what each patron needs in order to have an excellent dining experience, and then will deliver that.
Oh wow that sounds awful. I already don’t like when they come check on me mid-meal about wether the food is good or do I need anything.
Maybe eating out isn’t for everyone…
Eating out in Korea is great.
You need more water? They either have a fridge of jugs, or a water dispenser.
Side dishes are help-yourself; you just go up and get them. Unlimited and free.
The person who makes the food is sometimes the person who brings it to you.
No tipping, no tax added to the price you see on the menu, and no stupid prices like $19.99 instead of $20.00.
And even after all that, the prices are still cheaper than the bare menu prices for me back in Canada.
Sounds great!
I’m happy with the service at the local Burger King and sushi buffet.
My tip heavily depends on how full my water glass is kept and how long my dishes sit in front of me before they’re cleared.
I don’t need chit chat or being flirted with, I just need my meal in a prompt and courteous manner, that’s worthy of 15-20% IMO.
So literally you say it’s okay to pay extra for a server to do their job, because the restaurant isn’t paying them enough?
Hells no. I’m all for prohibition on tipping, because it WILL be abused. Just pay servers a normal salary like everyone else
I literally say that I am fine to pay extra when I believe the service is worth it. I live in a country where servers earn above minimum wage typically.
You do you, some people are cheap, some are ignorant some are both.
Why is the price you put on a full water glass dependent on whether you got an expensive steak vs a cheaper pasta dish though? This is why percentages are so dumb.
It’s representative of the service ime.
Should I tip them for not spitting in my food or not stumbling and throwing it all over my clothes?
In the US, yes. Tipping here is insane.
“If it’s in the core price of the menu, there will be a pullback” in patrons’ spending, she told NPR shortly before the attorney general released the guidelines. "There are some people, I think, that are hoping that the restaurants will just absorb that cost, because we’ve seen people say, ‘Oh, it’s too expensive with the service charge.’ "
If you add bullshit charges that are not added into the price on the menu, I don’t return ever. So you may lose a couple patrons initially but they’ll be back once they understand that is the general price. You will also get me back since there is no more possibility of bullshit charges.
Oh, so you mean people won’t order your food if they know what the real price is? Well… fuck you
More that sticker shock will keep people from ordering an appetizer with a main meal if everything is $2-3 more expensive than when they last visited
unless it’s previously posted clearly to see before I order, I’d just walk out and not pay, because that is otherwise called “fraud.”
They do post it but it is in small print on a random ass part of the menu. Not technically fraud but absolutely bullshit.
We should all take the attitude that if a fee is hidden in any way, including fine print, it is absolutely fraud. There should be no tolerance for businesses trying to trick their customers.
My new favorite is a hotel tax I just saw today which conveniently isn’t included in the room rate.
