Anyone who dismisses an entire generation as lazy or stupid is, ironically, revealing their own ignorance. Even Socrates complained about the youth of his time, yet civilization kept moving forward. If every new generation were truly worse than the last, we’d have collapsed long ago. So no, you can’t generalize an entire generation as foolish—doing so only highlights your own lack of perspective.
I’m an 80’s kid. We had to learn everything: MS-DOS, Windows, how to install OS’s and software, serial ports, etc. Nothing was easy or convenient. You had to LEARN how and why things worked if you wanted to run games and things.
My dad never used any of our actual PC’s. He wouldn’t know which way to hold the mouse, much less anything else. We tried to teach him, but he just couldn’t grasp any of the fundamentals.
But with an iPad? That’s easy. It just works. He can e-mail, do Facebook, watch YouTube or other streaming…
Point is: we made shit way too accessible and convenient. Kids never have to learn anything anymore. So they don’t. We literally had to teach interns the basics of working with a desktop; all they’ve ever used was an iPad and phone.
It also lead to the destruction of the old web. Back in the early to late ‘90’s, you had to be a nerd to use it. To WANT to use it even. But now that it’s so easy and convenient even my completely tech illiterate dad can get online, things have turned to shit. We never should’ve made it this convenient.
Don’t know no C, only /dev/sda1.
You wouldn’t download a C drive.
If that crowd represents chatGPT, then this represents gen alpha perfectly.
Right here you can see capitalism collapsing in on itself. This is the result of a society that glorifies consumption and makes work undesirable to do.
I run a Makerspace and teach technology to kids. I don’t think they are getting worse, but the difference between the lowest and highest skilled is bigger than ever before.
Those who are interested, learn so fucking fast and so thoroughly, because they have things like YouTube tutorials and Discord chat groups with like-minded nerds to teach themselves. BUT at the same time, it’s easier to just remain a consumer, and never gain any deeper knowledge.
I think curiosity and attention are quickly becoming the most important skills by far.
They get handed locked down chromebooks or iPads at schools. They’re only really exposed to a walled garden, and they also aren’t explicitly taught a lot of concepts that need to be taught (almost all MS/HS I’ve met have passwords which are just sliding their finger across the keyboard - it’s bewildering. I teach “correct horse battery staple.”)
You can’t learn much if you can’t install your own software. Learning is breaking things though, and most schools seem allergic to hiring competent tech teams/setting up sandboxed computer labs. Security concerns are huge - eg, if your kids school uses PowerSchool they probably got hacked this year - but when your teaching physics and can’t install MathLab or whatever…
There are still the little geeks that figure out how to get video game emulators going - Pokémon Emerald is probably more popular among middle schoolers today than it was in 2005.
92 here. My boys 10 and 8 have their own machines, they are told to Google it first before I come help.
“I’m not raising end users…get your shit together kid.”
Love,
SysEngineer Dad.
fellow tech dad here. how did you strike the balance between “look up shit online” and “hiding the terrors and lies of the internet from my kids”?
Mine’s still little, but knowing sooner is better.
I have the Microsoft safety shit on, and I made every site they can go to a web app. My router blocks nsfw/nonkid traffic. My phone gets notifications when they do anything at all.
And I have extensions blocking all nsfw sites just in case. And I’ve nuked the entry for any web browser on their start menu and task bars. Can’t even scroll to find it. If you open it, it requires my admin PW, which is 14char #$@-123-ABC so good luck turds.
Steam is locked down in kid mode - also they just play Roblox or cool math games anyways lol. Steam has browser disabled.
Only things they have access to is Bing.com with their signed in kid account. And coolmathgames.com.
It took about a week on and off to setup and I just did the two laptops in tandem. Windows 11.
The family thing can be a pain, Microsoft has a lot of half baked ideas https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/how-to-set-up-parental-controls-on-a-windows-11-pc
The family thing can be a pain, Microsoft has a lot of half baked ideas
I concur, Microsoft forced me to create a family to setup my daughter’s Minecraft account and even then I had to configure it incorrectly to add the game because it’s age rating was too high for a 5 year old and Microsoft’s own parental approval feature doesn’t override that. (I at least could change it back to being a 5 year old’s account afterwards) I need to figure out what setting I have to enable to let her do multiplayer at some point but so far she doesn’t have anyone to play with yet
My parents and school administrators’ attempts at blocking unsanctioned activities is what taught me computer literacy
There was nothing quite as satisfying as getting caught opening addictinggames on a web browser through a proxy when the teacher was convinced they had blocked it completely.
My son’s group in middle school hosted their own proxy overseas. They then pirated a whole bunch of educational videos that the teachers liked to use and made nice clean interface. The games pages had no direct links on the educational videos screens. They had to type in the the page directly in the URL.
So the teachers all loved the site and gave the official “approved for all students” bypass on the districts Chromebooks. The kids had uninterrupted access to all their games.
The kids were smart enough to keep the location of the games to students with a B or higher GPA. Most of the teachers turned a blind eye to them playing games when they did get caught. The games pages also had a home button that sent the students screens to a random educational video. I was truly impressed with their clever approach.
The IT department either never caught on or enjoyed the games themselves because its still up and they are all in highschool now.
I remember when proxies were easy to find and you could get to the most ridiculous stuff. We had college intern system admins for IT at our HS so it was easier to get by alot of things most of the time.
A friend and I became unofficial TAs for a high school computers class when we defeated the remote-viewing software and any web blockers, we knew more than the poor teacher and it was easier to let us do what we wanted if we promised to help other kids do the actual lessons.
That network had terrible security. So many important files stored as unprotected text in the intranet.
Yeah, I found Microsoft family to be a pretty half-assed experience. The thing that seems to work best is the screen time management. I had planned to try and set up YouTube access via allow listing channels in a home Linux server, but it turns out that YouTube doesn’t identify their videos by channel in the URL and I’d have to allowlist every single video for a given channel.
I’m planning on building a server that rips channels videos and they can have the app for that.
We are a no YouTube without our explicit permission on the video kinda household. Too much actual brainrot. And as much as I don’t like Television, at least my kids are mentally protected from bullshit with the Children’s Television Protection Act.
I’m guessing my kids are younger than yours, but I’ve taken the approach of simply keeping a loose eye and ear on what they’re watching to make sure they’re not on too bad of content and of course limiting how much time they can spend on brainrot content. They spend most of their TV time watching PBS kids or some ripped DVDs on my Jellyfin
You could theoretically host a Piped API instance, and use it to get channel info. I guess you are already using your own SSL certificates, judging by what you are trying to accomplish.
This is the Piped org btw: https://github.com/TeamPiped
It is a YouTube frontend/proxy.
Edit: I made a post on Piped’s community, so we can discuss it there: https://discuss.online/post/16448014
I’m not a sysadmin, I’m a backend dev with enough network knowledge to be dangerous. I’ve set up exactly one super basic website, so I know some of this stuff, I just have to (and can and will) stumblefuck my way through it. This seems like a really great idea, I had no idea Piped could potentially handle that. I’m going to keep an eye on this, thanks!
That’s awesome. I would’ve hated dealing with this as a kid. Will definitely steal this when I have kids.
I would’ve hated dealing with this as a kid.
same, except i would love to bypass this as an adult
Yea, my job at work now is to do this but all day lol. I build my network/firewall/and shit and then go around trying to break as much shit as I can so I can fix it.
My kid spends a lot of time helping their friends do basic computer stuff and we have the same rants about users.
I’m so proud.
Raising them right. I have a 28 year old college grad sys admin that I work with…I had to show him where windows updates were.
He uses windows search to open settings…bachelors degree in IT.
I wouldn’t be in the mood to start raising a child st 84
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought of a 92 YO on Lemmy.
Most parents done feel like raising theirs either. They just stuff them on a tablet and do their thing.
You’re 92 and your kids are 10 and 8? Damn, and I thought I started late.
Old dusty balls still knockin around by my knees but you better be god damn sure I’m fuckin.
“I’m not raising end users…get your shit together kid.”
Quite an important thing. That’s also important if you help your parents/grandparents with something. Guide the through it so you hopefully dont have to help them next time.
Not really. It takes a lot of experience to sort the legit from the not legit.
“Having problem X? Download the system32.dll fix here!”
That’s true. What I meant was like basic stuff like navigating through the settings of your phone or so.
Even then. My mother followed a YouTube video on this including the part where the helpful Indian guy had her download an app and set up a very sketchy VPN.
Yea…
What?
I’m starting to get to a point in my career where I have to turn down helping my family.
I strongly encourage the elderly to “just get an iPad” if they have an iPhone and just drop x86 devices all together. It’s way less headache.
Luckily my mom’s still young and proficient enough with computers and phones.
you should encourage them to use something that’s not google. Startpage, SearxNG, DuckDuckGo are good alternatives.
Ive heard about qwant and ecosia too
They are good options too.
I agree but bing.com is really what they are using because it has the parental controls that coincide with their signed in account.
When they get older and are more “free” on the Internet I’ll migrate them to Linux, I’ll let them choose the DE and then they can do what ever they want.
You turn your 8 year old loose on google, explicitly and intentionally unsupervised, and hold it up as an example of good parenting.
You assumed absolutely wayyy to much based on a single sentence and virtue signal your superiority based on your own fantasy of what’s going on with inconclusive data. Move along.
I used to teach math in the local school. The kids had a great interest in 3D printing because I had a few fun items in my classroom that I had 3D printed. I decided to spend a couple of weeks teaching a bit of CAD through having the kids spend it designing a personalized key chain to print.
It took me 3 days of class time to teach them how to use a mouse…They couldn’t grasp the idea that a touch screen and CAD don’t go together, you need that mouse to make it work. It quickly became apparent that things quickly became difficult for them if it doesn’t have a touch screen.
And while some classes are always a bit better than others, there was always a noticeable number of them that struggled with using a mouse.
To be fair: I switched to Linux 6 years ago. I’m using a tiling windowmanager, a lot of custom scripts, a different keyboardlayout with six instead of two layers (great for writing greek math, and other symbols) and an enthusiastic emacs user. I know the my System in and out. As a CS end math student, I know a fair bit about a Computer. But when A sit in front of an ordinary windows PC, I am a little bit upset. I stumble a lot of times over the thought: “You don’t have a keyboard shortcut for this! You have to use the Mouse, to switch Windows or you have to click yourself trough a menu to change this setting. There are no man pages you can search with regex” I hate it!
It’s because Windows has to save its keyboard combinations for the important things, like opening a new LinkedIn tab.
“an enthusiastic emacs user” Well, there’s your problem! (Sorry, I couldn’t resist the poke)
To be serious, Windows and that mouse are just tools-- same as any Linux distro is. A means to an end. Nothing more. There is nothing to be miffed about when you need to use that tool. Be proficient with all your tools. And when you need to use a tool, don’t be concerned about comparing it to the other tools. It diminishes you skills with that tool and and offers no gain to the solution.
I use Arch (btw) because it’s easy, simple, and beginner friendly
Absolutely lost in Windows, nothing ever works, and the documentation isn’t laid out well. Support is just sfc /scannow
I haven’t run into the problem of people not being able to use a mouse - but I’ve found that very few young people are able to tell if something is saved on their own computer or being accessed over the internet. Saving or downloading files is not something they are familiar with. (Which I suppose is because a lot of modern software makes cloud stuff so silky smooth that people don’t notice it.)
Computer natives are millennials. In due time, millennials will be what cobol programmers are in the coding world.
“On you want your recycle bin emptied? Yeah, thats gonna cost you.”GenX. We started with nothing and went from there.
I still know my way around autoexec.bat and config.sys
I had my hard earned ZX81 thankyouverymuch.
Well, now that I think about it you’re right, before that there was absolutely utterly nothing at all.
Finally some gen X representation!
On you want your recycle bin emptied? Yeah, thats gonna cost you.
aka what we’ve already been doing to relatives
I’ve worked in IT for most of my career. I’ve seen some shit. I’m on the older side of “millennial”. Not old enough to be on the cusp, but almost immediate after. I have had computers as a part of my life since I was young enough to remember, starting with a 286/386 that my dad used at home.
One thing I’ve noticed is that most companies shit doesn’t stink. What I mean by that is that all of them, to some extent, hide, cover up, or otherwise deny that their product has any issues whatsoever. I did a lot of VMware training back in the day, there were good reasons for that, but I won’t get into it … anyways, all of their training was about how it’s supposed to work. There’s zero material about what to do when it doesn’t work like it is supposed to… Even “troubleshooting” courses are designed to help you fix the configuration of the system using only methods sanctioned by the company, because any fault or flaw in their product must be because you aren’t using it right, or you simply don’t know how.
I’ve known so many millennials, especially in the tech space, that had to fix their own problems because the product, and the company that made it, believes that their shit doesn’t stink. There’s nothing wrong with their product, you either don’t know how to use it, or you aren’t using it correctly,
Meanwhile, here in reality, all their shit sucks to all fuck, and their product is little more than hour garbage.
Yay?
Gen Z/A are good at using tech, but they don’t really know anything about how it works. I work in IT support and it can honestly be a tossup sometimes if the person who doesnt know how to clear their cache is a boomer or not.
if a 3 year old can use a smart phone it’s not because that child is a genius it’s because the phones designer was.
Oh no, does this mean Gen X are going to be the wisened graybeards that holds arcane knowledge and seemly executes feats of magic when related to technology?
X and the millennials both had to deal with computers that were computers, it’s the people that grew up in the smart phone/tablet era that have no idea what to do in front of an actual computer…
My litmus test is: “Have you tried Linux?”
Even if they just used a live cd for curiosity, it means they know enough about computers to grasp the concepts that make them versatile, and were exploring around the net enough to read about it.
Now I know I am relatively young (just making the cut off to be considered a Millennial). But my parents were very against allowing kids access to the internet but not ani-technology. As a result I was using a 1996 Toshiba satellite when I was 4yr for Scholastic Reader Rabbit preschool games, but didn’t have regular internet access until I was 15. So I am familiar with the eccentricities of Windows 95, this did help me at work once when we had to use some legacy software from the 90’s that would only run on Win 98. But anyway I only recently have started using Linux in Docker containers for testing environments.
So I’ve been in the DOS/Windows world for at least 30 years. I have never used Linux, but I can configure a Cisco server or switch and stack a rack. Yet I fail your test?
You were working with computers since before smartphones existed, that’s a pass of course.
Going to be? We already are, along with older millenials.
Only the 10% or so that paid attention to “nerd stuff”.
All the rest are, at best boomer level, at worst smug about being at boomer level.
Based on how often I have to explain very obvious error messages to ostensibly qualified system admins: Yes.
(Though I insist I’m the oldest millennial and not Gen x)
Xennial!
True, late stage millenials are the same kind as Gen Y/A.
More like Millennials. Gen X may have been around for the duration of the silicon boom, but it was largely niche “nerd shit” when they were kids, and only became widely accessible/acceptable to them with the same changes that have left Gen A lacking basic computer skills. Millennials, though, grew up through the full development of PCs and the Internet and had to learn how to navigate them at their early stages, as well as keep up with the rapid changes. It of course still isn’t universal knowledge there, either, but anyone that used a computer regularly through the early 2000s is going to be levels above most people getting into it now.
Tsss, calling me an old nerd on lemmy. You’re a nerd! You’re on Lemmy!
But yes, i wildly, loudly concur woth most of this thread: my kids can’t be bothered with HOW something works. It just has to work. No interest at all in tcp, udp, whats a bit, byte why is everything in multiples of 8: that’s all nerd shit. And, indeed: my shit. Dad! You’re the nerd: fix this!
“Going to be …”?
I feel like I’ve been that graybeard for at least 10 lifetimes. No beginning. No end. Only servitude.
Yes.
Gen X is gonna be the tech equivalent of my grandma who knows everything there is to know about sewing and cooking
I wonder if that’s true. Sewing machines haven’t changed much since they started. Cooking hasn’t either. But, if you’re a computer-using Gen Xer, you can’t still be running Windows 95 or something. You’ve had to keep up with the current tech.
Now, you might be using Windows 11 the same way you used Windows 95, and missing out on some of the newer features. But, I think most people who knew how to debug a networking problem in Windows 95 still can figure out how to do it in the newest Windows releases.
It’s like driving. Yes, older drivers are worse drivers, their eyesight and hearing is worse, their reaction speed is slower, etc. But, cars have changed pretty considerably in the last 50 years, and most older drivers know how to use modern cars. They may not be as good at using some of the gadgets, like the GPS system, as younger people. But, they’ve adapted to keyless entry, push-button starts, push-button windows, backup cameras, traction control, and so-on.
It’s honestly a toss up whether sysadmins know what the fuck they’re doing. I’m working on a deal now that’s hampered by the fact that a Linux sysadmin for a huge finserv company doesn’t know how to administer a Linux system.
This is why the humanities are important: So you learn how to think about a problem and not just rely on someone writing down every goddamn keystroke for you.
humanities?
You spelt Math incorrectly.
humanities?
You spelt Math incorrectly.
People who think like you make my job a lot harder.
How are you supposed to understand instructions when you read at a third grade level?
How are you supposed to do research to understand an error message if you’ve never looked anything up before?
Mathematicians can usually read.
Except we’re not dealing with mathematicians. We’re dealing with sysadmins who must read well and quickly to do their job effectively.
They need to comprehend complex technical documents. They need to break things down into principles so they can apply them in novel contexts. They need to understand what the words “could not connect on port 4242” mean.
Except they don’t. They get me on the phone, throw their hands up in frustration, and have me push the buttons for them.
Because they didn’t pay attention in their humanities classes.
My confusion is that a degree in humanities doesn’t guarantee that someone can create clear instructions or follow then. (Nor does a degree in mathematics but at least there is some logic involved)
Being able to express yourself clearly and also read and interpret text is a big part of the humanities. Far too many folks in tech think these are worthless skills to develop and become a pain in my ass.
Gen Z are good at using tech, gen A are still learning how to use tech
You in NYC area? I’m hiring.
I’m 2-3 hours from NYC depending on traffic, so… kinda? But I’m pretty happy with my job honestly. I support a niche cloud product that my organization is almost entirely dependent on. Its a union position with good pay and benefits. It can be stressful sometimes and my boss can sometimes be… overbearing, but on the whole it feels like I’ve found a unicorn.
Out of curiosity though, do you have a job posting you’re willing to share? I like to keep my ear to the ground.
That’s awesome to hear. I could tell you’d be a good hire. We do automation contracting. We do lots of logic programming and also have an IT / MSP side of the business (Azure/on-prem domain, email server, cloud, etc.). I’ve been trying out this new app I saw an ad for on the train, advertising for job placement, and started using it the other day.
NYC = new york city
This is a translation provided for free by me because this user has defualted to american defaultism
To the person I’m replying to, THIS IS THE INTERNET, NOT america
If he’s from NYC, he knows what NYC means. If he’s not from there, it doesn’t matter anyway
NYC is one of a number of world cities known by acronyms or nicknames:
- Rio For Rio de Janeiro
- HK For Hong Kong
- TJ For Tijuana
- KL For Kuala Lumpur
- TO For Toronto
- Joburg For Johannesburg
There’s even a whole country that goes by its initials: UK.
So, stop thinking this is some American thing, it’s just a way that people shorten the names of common cities that have a few too many syllables to be convenient.
My dude, he’s from America lol
Gen Z/A are good at using tech, but they don’t really know anything about how it works.
Millennials don’t, either. A tiny fraction of a fraction had technical literacy 20 years ago and now they think they’re top shit because they can write simple CMD commands.
All this jerking one another off is crazy. I work in the industry and I’m surrounded by people my own age who don’t know what Active Directory is much less Linux.
Same as it ever was. The only thing that has changed is accessibility. All these discussions seem to miss that. Most people have not, do not, and will not ever care.
I guess I’m one of the fractions of a fraction. I remember back in the late 90s when that catastrophe of an OS called Windows ME was plaguing our society. Having to manually change registry keys just to make the damn thing recognize a sound card.
It makes me sound old but, kids these days have no idea the kind of hell we went through. If/when I have kids I’m going to start them off with DOS 6 and gradually move them up to current OSes. They need to know the pain we went through.
t makes me sound old but, kids these days have no idea the kind of hell we went through
I mean, whose motherboard still needs a sound card in this day and age? But then I could tell you about fiddling with the settings of an old dot matrix printer. I don’t think that qualifies me to set up a Kubernetes cluster or administer a data lake.
The “you kids today” rants seen to miss how hyper specialized computer hardware and software has become. No, Gen A is going to magically intuit an Azure DevOps Pipeline from first principles. Setting that up feels like I’m working through a Master’s Thesis on arcane file types. People need to stop pretending that knowing a bit of Regex from middle school entitled them to talk shit to a guy ten years their junior struggling with a customized .yaml file.
In sorry but this really sounds like boomer-esque mindset
Why should the younger generation have to go through the struggles of the older generation when those struggles are not relevant today
I’m gen z myself and I’ve changed Windows registry settings to disable stuff like caudiolimiter and change a few other things but I only learned to do that out of necessity
Things should not be forced on people unless they want to learn them, people will only learn things they are interested in
Force them to learn something and they won’t bother actually learning it because they aren’t interested and it won’t stick
This mindset is the same thing as passing down generational trauma to a a younger generation
People don’t need to know how to write a program from scratch to have useful tech knowledge. Knowing basic keyboard shortcuts puts a person above the vast majority of other people in terms of tech literacy.
For real. I’ve taught people copy paste shortcuts and they act like I’m an alien.
Late GenX (really, between X and Millennial): we expected everyone after us to understand tech. Nope.
I had a meeting with a young person who had to have the concept of a directory structure explained to them for a half hour…and they’re in charge of designing a file browser. 🤦♂️
I don’t think the exercise was even successful.
how do people with no skills even get hired? I cant even get interview for job I fit perfectly for every thing they are asking for.
I’m pretty sure the people who do interviews are not the ones who have to train them. Also, if you use chat gpt for writing your cover letter, structuring your CV, running interview prep etc etc. You don’t even really need to be literate to come across as pretty put together.
Interviewers look for excess confidence, not skill
i guess i’m not getting hired for any work ever then… i just want to work and do my work well, not play their sick mindgames or pretend to be someone i’m not. I dont have any motivation to force myself to do work on fields outside my education either anymore.
Yeah, smartphones don’t teach kids file structure at all.
