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This feels sad on the surface, as an American who went to college 25 years ago and is used to seeing people from around the world move here to learn, teach, start businesses, etc.
But giving it any real thought, damn it, it is much better for humanity this way. Climate change isn’t going to pause while the world watches us collapse.
This thread gives me hope. Last Trump presidency Marcon told scientists to move to France. I was like… I hear you. Added 56 credit hours of math and science to my writing degree. Now I’m ready to do bioinformatics or something health data related not in the US.
This is amazing for us in Europe, bring all the educated ones and leave the Trumpers there
Fully onboard with this, welcome to Spain amigo.
well to some of us americans, who can’t leave, this is horrible… but logical….
the last thing i want is all the reasonable people to leave, and be stuck with these fuxks….i kinda wonder now, how much did people fleeing nazi germany contributed to them solidifying power?
It’s kinda funny, this is what Texas did to Oklahoma in regards to our teachers. Put up billboards saying that they paid more in Texas. It’s depressing but it worked lol.
oklahoma wasn’t great before that, but at least it was OK…
I mean I imagine most people leaving would still keep American citizenship and therefore still be able to vote. Unless they decide to end their citizenship which some might but I imagine most people would still want to keep that option open.
The world is looking to China too, their sciences are blossoming. Exciting times ahead while Americans decide who they are and want to be and eventually go through their own Enlightenment. Things are bad now, but tyrants always fall eventually. I think we are entering a sort of golden age for science.
We have quite a shortage of doctors and other medical professionals in Slovenija. Come on over, guys!
ETA: and professors to teach at the medical university.
How much is med school there and are older people welcomed into the schools? I had to drop my premed program here in the US because I either need to be a med student for rural America … which can get fucked imo or pay a million to stay in “progressive” cities.
Most countries welcome medical professionals with open arms. They are always shortlisted. ;)
PS: I love Slovenija, it is so pretty. I reccomend it too!
And as far as I’ve seen the numbers it’s working too. Anywhere in Europe that is academic or sciency is seeing record numbers of Americans applying. The brain drain will be real.
It has already been happening for several years now, it’s just accelerated since Trump. Even before his first term there was a “negative brain drain” of educated workers no longer coming into the US because the benefits (paid time off, health care, etc) are so much worse compared to other countries, even when considering the higher pay. America used to rely on a steady stream of incoming highly educated workers.
But now there is a huge amount of well established academics leaving for Canada, EU, or anywhere else that will pay them. I work in a physics department at a large R1 university in a very liberal state, and we are losing 4 (that I know of) high regarded professors just this year alone moving to other countries.
The brain drain is here, and won’t be reversing course even if Trump suddenly disappears. We would have to completely change how we reward work and our failing healthcare system for anything to change.
It’s already happened in Florida and Idaho at least, Idaho lost a huge amount of medical professionals thanks to RvW and state passed open ended and vague laws. Florida lost just about all their teachers DeSantis is stuffing schools with sycophants with little to no education and no teaching credentials. We’re already losing.
My daughter is about 2 years from graduating high school, and even before Trump came into office I was urging her to consider non-US colleges. Mostly because she wants to go into medicine and our healthcare system has been broken for much longer than I can remember. But also the rise of Fox News (and others) getting away with stating provable lies as fact, Joe Rogan, et al. showed that there has been an inflection point and the country is being led around by the dumbest of us.
She’s fluent in Spanish, though jumping straight into a medical program would introduce a lot of new specialized words, and might be to much. We’re starting to look into options though.
College introduces a lot of new words in general. It is what it’s for, plus, she will be in pre-med. Go for the Spanish route. She will flourish. :) Spain is so lovely. I hope I can land something there next.
Ugh, Spain is amazing. I dream of that country.
Specially in smaller cities away of the big two.
Medical English is largely stripped-down Latin, I wonder how similar medical Spanish is
The technical terms are very similar. The only issue would be the colloquial terms.
I mean English is sorta the science lingua franca so I imagine most of the technical words would be lone words if they showed up in a paper first.
I wouldn’t mind moving to canada since I’m really close to the border anyway. it would be like nothing happened almost
It low-key reads like one of those “lonely singles in your area” ads.
Yeah, I good with the message, but that’s one of the most uncomfortable looking photos I’ve seen. Where are they supposed to be looking?
Meanwhile the Trump administration has asked Australian academics to justify that their US-funded research lines up with Conservative values
Actual free market at work, as opposed to the shit we have in the U.S.
Come to Germany! We do everything like the US, but with a 4 year delay and 10% less intense! Relive your memories of when your homeland went down the drain!
I feel like the 4 year delay is gonna hit it’s threshold and start surpassing the US. Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like Germany has the populous to shift very quickly. Now that the US is full Fascism I feel like Germany just got the acceleration card equipped. Which will also influence the rest of the west and Americans to hit the “kill all Muslims” button as hard as they can.
Starting with “Hamas/Palestine/Antisemitism” as the justification.
I still have the hope that people see the trainwreck the US is now and go “oh shit”, and try to avoid it
It’s happened before. A lot of the allies in ww2 were nazi-curious before their country was invaded. They were getting fairly popular in the US especially, holding large rallies and captivating the hearts of several of our captains of industry. I won’t go into the details.
Some states will go down the path of fascism until they pass the point of no return, and the state that existed before is well and truly dead. When they’re done warring against their own minorities they’ll attempt to expand to neighboring states because they need to justify their own existence.
Some states will follow the path of fascism until they see their peers further down the path either trapped in the turmoils of war and genocide, or threatening war and genocide on themselves or their close allies, then they turn around out of fear of the new common enemy. Like a sailor trapped by a sirens call only snapping out of it when the sailor in front of them gets devoured.
I have less hope for two reasons:
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These are still capitalist countries and thus the incentive for fascism still remains even if it gets delayed a bit.
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The US is the largest, most dangerous military superpower the world has ever seen and it has shown time and time again that it’s willing to use that might to bully other nations into economic submission. No country is really safe if it decides to start going after them. The US hasn’t always won these wars, but even when it fails like in Vietnam or Korea, it does enough damage on the way out to cause massive destruction and suffering which has long lasting consequences. I seriously doubt the rest of the world is just gonna get to sit this one out and watch America self destruct.
For 1., also don’t forget that major labour movements spring up during and after WW2, it’s hard to say how much of a repeat that will be this time around, but the potential is there
And 2., I agree, I am concerned myself, especially with nukes these days
But on the other hand, economy, and reliance on globalized production chains, is so much more central to the core of a nation these days. It’s not possible to just produce everything locally anymore, not like it was during WW2, anyway. everything is too hyper specialized for that now
So there is the potential that, if the US really does something very stupid and gets a complete embargo from the rest of the west, they’re just going to get completely fucked (and so will the rest of the west, but you know). So the amount of damage they end up being able to do might end up being limited
Of course, China would benefit massively from this, as they do actually go heavy on self-sufficiency, and then there’s the risk of Russia exploiting this as well, but the silver lining is that the US simply might collapse before it manages to do some real damage
In the end, I think the future of how the world will look like will be up to China. I really really hope that they end up having a massive democratic movement for the sake of the world, but we’ll see. At least China so far still seems like a rational actor on the world stage, although still ruthless and self-serving, of course
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The reaction to Brexit in the rest of the EU - where almost from one month to the next people’s support for the idea of leaving the EU crashed to less than half as much as shown in various polls at the time - gives me hope that what Trump is doing in America is actually crushing the chances of his ideology in the rest of the World.
This seems to already be happenning in Canada (we will know for sure once the result of their upcoming elections is out).
In summary, I think there is good reason to hope that the result in the rest of the World of the Fascist Far-Right taking over a high-profile country like the US will be either the crushing of the Far-Right or it very explicitly distancing itself from the kind of ideology espoused by Trump - in other words, that America, just like Britan with Brexit, is really and unwittingly taking one for the rest of us.
As a pretty terrified American, I actually take some comfort in this idea. Please learn from us. I just hope if things get that far here, that the rest of you will have some empathy for those of us who did not want this. So many comments from people in other countries are blaming every American for this. Seeing so many of those comments (mostly on Reddit) has been the second scariest part of all of this for me. I’m used to being hated in the abstract for being an American, but to think that if the fascists here get their way people like me have no hope of escape is too much to think about
If there’s any consolation, I personally support asylum for Americans escaping political persecution for my country, I just hope that our government will act quickly enough for it, and the right not getting in the way
I expect a lot of, especially queer, people trying to escape, and I really hope we get something in place before it’s too late
Welcome to our world. I remember the hate I had to put up with, just for being Serbian. Finally, someone else understands.
As a white American, I was just talking about this relatively new experience to me, and not in any way meaning to co-opt or undermine other people’s objectively worse experiences, by the way. Just wanted to throw that out there.
At the same time, while we might disparage Russia or China, to me that’s always meant the government, not literally the people. I hate that I probably took for granted that at least most other people thought the same way I did.
Half the country is fighting to run towards the trainwreck…
I would say that the politically widespread “unwavering support” for a nation very overtly because of their dominant ethnicity, including whilst they’re commiting a Genocide along ethnic lines themselves (the kind of thing one would naivelly expect Germans to be especially disgusted at), proved beyond any doubt that Racism in Germany is alive & well all across the political spectrum, from the supposed “left” of the Greens all the way to the far-right.
(AfD really is just the same mindset with the addition of “If it’s good to unwaveringly support them no matter what they do, then it’s also good for us”)
Sadly whilst the symbols were forbidden, the way of thinking about other human beings (of seeing people as members of ethnicities and judging and treating them differently depending on ethnicity) that was the foundation for Nazism never actually died in Germany, they just changed who the ubermenschen and untermenschen are and don’t actually say those words out loud.
Where is this post-racism country where you live and are you taking applications?
Ah, the good old sociopath-style argument that because there is Racism everywhere then people shouldn’t complain about the level of Racism in some places approaching that of the Nazis.
It’s the Racist variant of the good old “we’re better than North Korea” argument to defend Capitalist excesses.
I’m not German and maybe I misread, but I took this as specifically singling out Germany
If you go up to my original post, it was in response to somebody talking about German politics in the context of the Israeli Genocide.
As one of only a handful of nations who kept on “unwaveringly supporting” Israel with weapons even as the Genocide became more and more extreme and obvious beyond deniability, Germany definitely needs to be heavily criticized for that support and the underlying view of other human beings that is required for people to say - as Sholz did - “We unwaveringly support the Jewish Nation” (note the ethnicity very explicitly) as justification to keep sending weapons to Israel even after they had already murdered over 40,000 civilians including a list of babies 1 year old or less which was 17 pages long.
This isn’t the “police taking less seriously reports of being assaulted from victims of certain ethnicities than from other ethnicities” level of Racism far too common in many countries, this is the “we’ll keep on sending weapons to people who have murdered thousands of babies because we support the race of the murderers” level of Racism - the level of evil of unfairly treating a minority is a whole different scale from the level of evil of sending weapons to baby mass murderers because you support their race.
Absolutely, the likes of the US and UK, for example, are just as appallingly and disgustingly Racist.
However I myself did not expect this from Germany, both because I had a much much better opinion of Germans (I even lived there for 3 months) and because having in the past done horrible things (Nazism, the Holocaust) exactly because of extreme Racism and spent the time since remembering it and claiming “Never again”, it turned out that the “Never again” of most German politicians was the race-limited version “Never again shall we Germans do this to Jews” rather than the Humanist version of “Never again shall this happen”.
It’s hard for me to convey just how profoundly disappointing I am with Germany in addition to how disgusted I am with it and other nations who kept supporting baby mass murderers with weapons to kill more babies overtly because they support the race of the murderers.
So yeah, I totally agree with
I feel like Germany just got the acceleration card equipped
from the poster I was responding to, because until recently Germany hadn’t displayed anywhere near the levels of Racism required to, because of the race of the murderers, support baby mass murderers with weapons that will be used to murder more babies.
Wouldn’t that be wonderful, so see the greatest brain-drain in human history. Couldn’t happen to nicer people.
Lmao I’m not moving to Europe
Is this why Elon is pushing for anti-immigration parties in the EU? He doesn’t want people to leave?
Of course he doesn’t want people to leave, how can he be king if all his serfs leave?
Their schools were already orders of magnitude cheaper. Get ready for extreme brain drain!
Completely free. Kind of. It’s like less than €200 a year to study at a university in Finland.
This is true only for students from the EU/ETA area: for students from outside it is a minimum of 1500€/year to study in a school of higher education.
So the cost of like one class in the US.
Which is still cheap for many Americans.
I’m hoping to get into a pretty well regarded game dev school in Sweden that is $25k USD for the entire degree. Comparing it with anything similar in the US is mind boggling. Schools here are impossibly expensive
Future games, innit? The one the ceo of the company that made It Takes Two finished?
It’s mind boggling to me that this school exists. I mean they have the achievements of the alumni to schow, so good for them.
But still it’s a paid school for game dev, famous for crunch, and worse salary than “normal” dev. So not only will you work more, and earn less, you also have to pay for your studies, since standard CS is free.
I’m a little confused here, I’m not EU/Swedish citizen wouldn’t any of my studies require me to pay? I care about money very little which is part of why I’ve been feeling so soul sucked at my current job. I’ve only been here for money for a bit now and I hate it. In a lot of ways I’d rather just be poor. I was happier when I was working for like 1/5 what I make now but felt excited about what I did
I love games and game making. I’ve been skirting around the industry for over 15 years at this point and haven’t been able to crack in yet. Future Games, or any of the schools I’ve applied to, is an opportunity to be on a visa for nearly the entire trump term and hopefully network enough to land a job after school. So I’m not just paying for education I’m paying for my own safety
The crunch is for real but also the job culture in the US is batshit. My first job out of college I ended up pulling 16 hour days 7 days/week. Everywhere here it is expected you’re going to do more work than you’re paid for or you risk getting fired. Crunch time in Sweden sounds like normal time in the US tbh
I didn’t look at the curriculum of the game dev school but from my personal experience studying CS I would say that what you learn there isn’t really comparable to CS besides the programming part
Agreed, and I kind of wish CS and game dev weren’t considered so similar. They both program, sure, and those skills can be moved.
Go ask a Microsoft dev to explain game theory, hotkey availability, and UX. Then, ask a game dev the same questions. You’ll get wildly different answers because they wildly different goals
This is why the tradeification of engineering should be viewed with skepticism. An engineering degree should give you a strong technical background in computing, physics, math, and software without over-specializing. You are meant to learn specific tradecraft on the job.
Having over a 25 year career done development in all kinds of areas including gamedev, there is quite a big difference in way of thinking and doing stuff between anything with user interaction and server-side stuff, and gamedev specifically also differs a lot from the rest of areas of user-facing software because it’s very performance oriented, way closer to the bare metal than the rest (in smartphone apps you’re working on top of libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries, in gamedev you make GPU shaders in a variant of C which very tightly tied to the specifics of how that hardware works), and each game is pretty much a unique user interface in programming terms (i.e. there much less reusability, especially of assets, than in say web or smartapp development).
(I mean, in server-side stuff you’re for example worrying about transactional integrity during database access, system design for balanced distributed handling of requests or networked access to APIs exposed via REST interfaces, whilst in in gamedev you’re for example doing vector maths to project a user click on the screen onto a game plane in the 3D universe, moving the bones in 3D models to animate them and writting shaders to produce effects like a 3D model being consumed from the point of impact when hit by a shot.
Mind you, for me personally all of them are cool challenges (which is probably why I’m one of those unusal developers who is generic to the point of sillyness) but they’re definitelly very different, even in the kinds of architectural approaches used for the software being developed.
And that’s not even to mention security. I’m in a CS course right now, and sure we talk about cyber security and social networking and blah blah blah.
Go ask a game dev about their security patches and you’ll see the WORLD of difference in the two spaces
Oh, man, yes.
I’ve spent more of my career doing server-side stuff than other areas and it’s like night and day when it comes to IT security between server-side dev and gamedev, probably because server-side is networked and generally is done for much more important targets (valuable data and even actual financial assets of big companies, rather than an individual’s game state or machine) so there a big expectation that the best external attackers (and a veritable army of script kiddies) will be hammering at anything a server-side component exposes via a network interface, trying to hack it.
Mind you, I still bitched and moaned at the lack of IT Security awareness of some of my colleagues when I was doing server side stuff :)
That’s still pricey imo
University in Sweden is free for swedish citizens, it used to be free for foreign students as well, but since some years ago the universities are allowed to put fees on foreign students. Dont remember the exact details of how it works. Edit: looked it up, still free for people from EU, EES and Switzerland, and people living in Sweden with a resident permit.
I was around when they introduced it. They basically killed some programs because it went from a few students to none. Because why would you pay for a Swedish uni noone heard of instead of a bit more for a famous uni. It was a stupid policy.
To be fair, I see the argument. It is tax-paid, so you want to reserve it for people who are likely to pay future taxes.
Why are rich expats more likely to pay taxes in sweden in the future than expats who could not afford tuition?
They are not, which is why they charge them upfront. But people with a residence permit or citizenship are much more likely to stay long-term.
I have no strong opinion whether that is the right choice, tbh. I see it at my Uni, a lot of foreign students study here and the majority then leaves the country again. Which is fair, but the idea of tax-funded education is, well, it’s tax-funded, so I am more or less directly paying for their education. Is that good/bad/worth it or not? I’m not sure.
Also, I feel like the majority of foreign students that come here just for a degree are already from wealthy backgrounds. I know I’m on dangerous “feelings, not facts” territory, but I get a lot of “rich kid who didn’t get into a good uni in their home country” vibes. The poorer foreign students are usually super smart and got in via a scholarship or the likes.
Yeah, if it’s free for your citizens it has to be free for all EU citizens. Getting in can be tricky though.
Oh nice! Get yourself a permit!
Haven’t European schools been cheaper since like the 80s tho?
Yep
So I would think the brain drain would have happened a long time ago, like back in the 90s. Sadly, most of us Americans will just keep paying more and more for stuff rather than give any of it up.
It is quite hard to even get accepted to a foreign undergrad program out of high school. Grad school is a bit easier but it’s still difficult and traditionally there is just enormous amounts of money in the US academic system so going abroad really needs to be something you prioritize. Also many US grad students don’t pay tuition for PhD track programs. You get an assistantship with a stipend.
You get paid for doing a PhD in Europe, too. Also, teams tend to be very international, sometimes majority or even exclusively so.
So if students from third-world countries can come over regularly with few issues to live and work here, I wonder what’s holding back Americans.
It isn’t an active choice. Moving to Europe is not an option for most Americans.
Is there a reason for it or is this just internalised american exceptionalism?
Edit: There was a misunderstanding, and I was rude here.
Ok. I must have failed to formulate my question properly. I’m sorry for that. Let me try again. I know moving is expansive, takes much of time and is really exhausting. But the post talks about scientists. The little interaction I had with scientists have led me to the believe, that it is much more easy for scientists to move even across nations and even across continents. You said moving is no option for americans. Why is that?
The message “america is best” used to be shouted everywhere they had a chance. It might be bullshit, but say it enough and it sticks.
Then again, the scars that the nazi’s left behind are still visible. With how recent that was back in the 90’s I wouldn’t blame people for being careful. Moving countries isn’t a thing most people do every few decades.
