I gave up on finishing those books years ago. It’s been long enough I hardly remember what happened in the last one and the next one isn’t even on the horizon as far as I can tell. It’s not happening.
— George R. R. Martin
Here you go: “—” (em dash)
⁰—⁰
Oh yeah, thanks.
I’ve been telling people this since somewhere around 2014/2015 when I read the third book. The first two books were well thought out, the plot moved, the exposition had purpose and was driving toward something. While I was about 2/3 of the way through the book I realized that it felt like GRRM had changed his mind about what he wanted to do with the story. The book no longer seemed focused on a destination, it seemed focused on moving characters around so that he could make something different work instead. But doing that new thing meant killing off 75% of the characters he’d spent two books developing, so he had to replace them with new ones, who were less developed, kind of cardboard cutouts of the previous ones. But now these new characters stories needed to be fleshed out so he could make their involvement make sense. In doing that he realized he couldn’t slot them in to accomplish the goals he needed to complete the story. So he kept expanding the web, expanding the universe, but never really having a plan or path in place to make it all come back together. And that’s where he’s been for over a decade.
He hasn’t finished the books because he doesn’t know how to at this point. He can’t get everything tied together, he can’t go back to the story he wanted to tell because he killed off pieces necessary to make it happen, and the replacements didn’t fit where he needed them to.
I stopped reading after the third book too, and that’s exactly the sense I got.
There’s no conclusions, just character deaths. It’s just an unraveling web that becomes less and less coherent the further it goes.
I’ve read all of them, though not very closely. Unless it was one of a handful of important characters by the 4th book I had absolutely no clue who anybody was. Names kept getting dropped like I’m supposed to know who this person is but there are so goddamn many it’s impossible to keep track.
The last two books are like 3/4s just moving people around, and literally everything interesting that happens happens in the last 250-300 pages or so.
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This is why I just do not buy any story that’s unfinished.
As sad as it is, no matter how cool Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth looks, I just can’t emotionally bring myself into it knowing it could be another Kingdom Hearts 3 “we don’t know where we’re going” ending. Even my childhood classic Half-Life both couldn’t commit to an ending, and when their writer frustratedly uploaded “fanfiction” of its ending, it basically ended on a Cthulu Mythos style downer.
From now on, I’m only getting into stories if I can see a review that says “It ended very well!” not “I can’t wait to see what happens next.”
The only author I feel comfortable reading an unfinished series by is Brandon Sanderson. But that’s just because the dude can write two books in the time it takes me to read one.
Edit: Son of a bitch, he wrote another book while I was writing that comment. Skip to the very end for new book announcement
Legit.
I’m so sick of the ‘big twist’ ending where something ‘unexpected’ happens or it leaves it ambiguous, just give us closure.
The ending to Hot Fuzz is perfect. It answers questions, doesn’t stick around too long and ties up all the loose ends, while still being open-ended and leaving it to the viewer to conjure what happens next.
You may be on to something. The whole thing could have wrapped up at the end of the red wedding with Dany invading and taking over a broken kingdom, and then Lysa Arryn could have released she was behind it all with Little finger to the world and everyone would have realized it was all a big misunderstanding. That was probably as far as GRRM planned out initially. It also explains why thr White Walkers seemed to slow down after the fist of the first men.
My theory is he actually helped write the ending of the TV show, and when the fans absolutely despised it, realized he had to scrap his entire ending.
The problem was the execution. A tyrannical Daenarys as the final villain after the White Walkers were defeated makes sense, but she was never actually given the time to be the Mad Queen. She should have gotten a whole season as the big bad after her entire arc from book 1 to present being the buildup to her reign. It’s like they were given the bullet points of the ending and instead of fleshing it out into a proper story, they just used the bullet points as the entire source for the script.
Yeah, it could have been interesting to watch her slow decent into madness, but it was like they crammed all the major plot points into a day or two.
Not that I’m going to watch the last season again to verify, but it felt like she went from savior to genocidal maniac in about 3 minutes of screentime. It was jarring.
That’s actually my memory of it too, but I thought I would be generous by saying “a day or two” to give the show the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, didn’t she snap when they executed her servant?
This was a show that was totally cool spending 2-3 seasons for a payoff. I can’t believe I’m still upset by how they speedran through everything.
I’m still surprised how GoT was on the forefront of pop culture and within 2 seasons any and all interest was morphed to apathetic disdain. No one really talks about it anymore. It’s only “they fucked up the ending”. Blue balled an entire fandom so bad that it impacted the show runners careers. I’m really hoping HotD brings the fandom back (also, a reboot of the last 2 seasons as a whole new show would be dope)
I can’t think of another pop culture fall from grace as dramatic and quick. It’s always amusing seeing all the overstock GoT merch at hobby stores that they can’t unload. Nobody gives a fuck.
The final season fucked up so badly that it killed not only my love for the show, but the Game of Thrones universe as a whole. I had planned to read the books and certainly would have watched HotD, but now I just don’t care anymore.
I also felt like that but after some time i watched HotD and it was great, the only thing i’m worried about is it getting worse with the new seasons like GoT did
Fans had been predicting that Dani would have a heel turn since the first book so it’s not like it wasn’t built up. D&D were just admittedly fanboys of the character and white washed her on the TV show so the twist came seemingly out of nowhere.
Edit: Thinking on it a bit more, it’s also in the books favor that we have access to Dani’s internal dialogue. It’s through this that we get a lot of foreshadowing about her future turn, and is definitely a way the books would have handled it better.
Even in the show Dani is basically a child who’s convinced it’s her birthright to rule over the world. People were rooting for her because the story arc was cool, but if we take the character seriously she’s completely deranged since season 1.
i support this. i personally was waiting for a better fight between the big guys.
I hope not. The ending didn’t suck, the build up did. I can absolutely see dragon girl nuking kings landing but it’ll take more than one episode between “I don’t want to rule over ashes” and her actually ruling over ashes for me to say “yeah I can see how she got there.”
This is the best take. It really was the speed run buildup, not the actual events and decisions that ruined it.
Yep, been saying this for years.
We know he told the show creators huge future plot points. That ending was the ending, it sucked, he’s embarrassed, the series will never be finished.
It was SO bad. My main issue was how they mangled my favorite characters.They made the only protagonist I liked a villain (well besides Margaery, rip). Made her die from the puppy dog Jon Snow, who helped cause BA Ygrittes death because he had no freaking spine. Total insult to my favorite characters.
I will not be reading the book if the ending is the same or similar, which is what brought me to the idea of him holding out because…it was probably the same.
I haven’t watched the new show either, I’m waiting to make sure it’s decent all the way through…if it’s still running? lol.
House of Dragons was actually pretty good. Reminded me of the beginning of GOT. Not sure if it’s continuing, though. But at least it’s a prequel so the plot points are all already out there in his history prequel books.
I disagree, but only because I think I figured out the ending, how GRRM told the show writers, and I can see how they interpreted it.
Possible spoilers: I think Jon is supposed to kill Daenerys and the writers couldn’t figure out why so they just made up dumb shit. But the reason he kills her is to forge a sword (Lightbringer) to destroy the white walkers. And Daenerys agrees to it.
"To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero’s sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.
The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.
The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating the weapon known as Lightbringer." -Tyrion tells this story in book 2 I believe
“According to prophecy, our champion will be reborn to wake dragons from stone and reforge the great sword Lightbringer that defeated the darkness those thousands of years ago. If the old tales are true, a terrible weapon forged with a loving wife’s heart. Part of me thinks man was well rid of it, but great power requires great sacrifice. That much at least the Lord of Light is clear on.” -Book 2
Yeah and he’s stuck as D&D would narc him out of he changed it now in a desperate attempt to save their tattered reputations.
As others have mentioned Danis heel turn was rushed by also Brans story was also cut short. If they had actually given him the time to have some epic adventures and actually save everyone then may be he could have lived up to Tyron’s billing at the council.
Some of it is also he just doesn’t know when to self edit out the additional pov stories. We should be reducing them as we approach the finish not adding new ones as he has been doing.
Oh man, I totally forgot about the new characters being introduced. He should be killing off the big ones and using one time characters to give more backstory/perspective like that alcoholic Frey with the headaches sent to pay ransom.
He could get out of the mereneese knot by showing POV from different factions how Dany tries to govern, but ppl are assholes and the only way is to rule with an iron hand. Bad things, good intentions blah blah blah. Do everything right and still fuck up.
Similar writers who for some reason are fixated on completing their series in one or two books.
My hot take is it’s this constraint they put on themselves that caused them to feel overwhelmed and lose interest.
Rothfuss had planned to have second trilogy follow Kvothe’s story. Presumably the first trilogy answers why he’s the Kingkiller, the second is the conflict with the Chandrian.
Yes. I need to know what the hell happens to kvothe
See, Rothfuss made a Mary Sue. Since the story is being told by the guy the story is about, after the fact, to someone who the narrator has no respect for, Rothfuss has an out: He can let Kvothe keep telling his story and then out it all as complete bullshit, or he can let it be just an embellished truth and then let us learn exactly why Kvothe is essentially in hiding after living such a fantastical life - either way Kvothe gets his punishment / redemption and we learn about what real tragedies have befallen him. This story is deep and good.
What he cannot do is pretend that all that ACTUALLY happened, and that Kvothe went on to kill a king and retired to an easy life as an in keeper. That story would suck hard ass and make everyone’s eyes roll out of their heads.
I’m convinced he wrote #2 and is basically waffling over how to turn it into #1, or arguing with his publisher over it, because he knows it’s inherently bad.
His latest book, The Narrow Road Between Desires, isn’t written from Kvothe’s perspective though, but has him as a side character and confirms that Kvothe is at least somewhat of a bad ass.
It’s told from the perspective of Bast (Kvothe’s fae apprentice/student, for those of you who haven’t read a Patrick Rothfuss book in the last 13 years). The book basically implies that while Bast has strange magic powers, Kvothe is still the true master. So that basically rules out the idea that Kvothe is telling a complete bullshit story.
Neat, I didn’t even know what was a thing! I’m glad he figured out where to take the story, and it sounds like he’s leaning into making what Kvothe says as being more truth than fiction, but the next part is still hard: how do you make the end more interesting than “And then the main character kicked everyones ass, the end”? Especially since we know he lives and is, presumed fine? That’s the part that is likely taking forever, and this novella sounds like it’s a chunk of story he couldn’t fit in the book.
For the record I like Rothfuss and all his writing. I’ve met him! We talked about life stuff and he’s a cool guy! I think people expect more than The Dresden Files from him and that pressure sucks. I maintain that he likely wrote the final book, realized he hated it, and has spent this time trying to salvage it while maintaining that the next book will be the end of the story.
The most annoying part is he’s written several books since then, just not in the main story.
He’s probably getting so much done by avoiding working on Winds of Winter.
Relatable.
And Elden Ring
I am 💯 convinced he’s been done with all the material for years and it will all get released on his death. He had a huge amount of leverage for those last deals and he’s paid for all time based on what he made from HBO.
My guess? He just didn’t like what he saw in those last seasons, and doesn’t feel like he owes anyone anything. Maybe we’ll get the rest when he passes, but he’s probably just not worried about it and living his life.
I think the last few seasons demonstrated that a lot of his conclusions for these characters is going to feel rushed if he tries to do it in just two books.
That would be great, but I would be bet against it.
So you think he just gave up?
If you want to call it that, then yes. I fear that to him, this is a big project he is no longer excited to finish. Like learning a language and then losing interest or building something in your backyard.
First progress slows down, than nothing happens anymore and finally, after years, you cancel Babel, clean up that stuff in the backyard and let go of your unfinished book series that has build way too high expectations anyway.
Yes
A big ASOIAF YouTuber Preston Jacobs went through George’s statements and interpreted them and determined he had a bunch of leftover material that didn’t fit in the last book, and he has since added less than 100 pages total over the last 13 years or whatever. The guy is not working on Winds of Winter.
And he was supposed to get Winds out during the show, it was going to be season 6 which came out in the Obama administration. And think of how much money he would have made if he released a book during the show.
Yeah I saw that. He made a pretty convincing case that the only new content George had written was during lockdown in the pandemic, the rest was all stuff that he cut from Dance of Dragons.
Now, George Martin doesn’t owe anyone anything, it just makes me sad that this series will never be finished.
He doesn’t owe us anything, but I wish he would at least be honest and say, “hey y’all, sorry but I’m not really interested in these books anymore”.
I wish it for his sake. I have ADHD and I’m plenty familiar with the guilt-dread cycle where you’re meant to be working on something that you can’t bring yourself to face. I can imagine the situation he’s in is emotionally pretty similar, even without ADHD, and that makes me sad. I hope he’s doing okay. I hope he’s happy and comfortable in his life and not experiencing this dread cycle, even if I’d prefer he be open with fans.
Link/source?
Except he doesn’t wake up on a chair, he wakes up on a giant pile of money.
And he’s writing it on like an Apple 2, so like a good 30 minutes is spent waiting for his machine to boot up. By the time it does, he probably forgets that he was gonna do it.
I think it is an old PC with WordStar
You’re right, it’s an old DOS machine. I misremembered
I can’t tell if this is satire or real, because I know artists do weird things to get in the right zone.
He absolutely does. Supposedly it helps limit distractions. I don’t think it’s helping.
Man loves his solitaire.
Didn’t machines at that time take mere seconds to boot?
There was nothing to boot! My mom has MSDOS on a whatever that was built sometime probably around 1989 or 1990. Had a big red switch, flick on, a couple of strange noises, a hello line of text, and then flashy cursor let you knew you were ready to play Jeopardy or Worms.
Lol, I was like 5 when they were prevalent. I don’t remember at all.
I started the first one then came into the realisation he is never gonna finish it and abondoned it.
You can stop at book 3, it’s fine.
I tell people this about wheel of time. It was originally supposed to be a trilogy and then they all saw $$$ and went “JUST KIDDING” on that ending and wrote 11 more books.
Was it? Didn’t know that. It definitely could have been a couple of books shorter, but I love the expansive epicness of the entire wheel of time story.
Well, call it a fan theory. It’s not like I have proof.
I was reading them early enough that I remember waiting for Winters Heart to come out, so I had time to lament his decisions in between each book after that 🤣
Nah i can’t
He realised a few years back that a revered scion of a massacred noble line riding massive scaly creatures into battle at the head of an army of fanatics and ultimately turning into an even worse despot is just Dune again and has lost all interest in it.
Wrapping up a story is hard. Which is why I don’t 😎
Rothfuss!!! Get of Lemmy and write dammit!
Dammit Patrick! Seriously though, I was dumb enough to hear good things about The Kingkiller Chronicles back in like 2013 and thought “ok he’s written 2 out of 3 books. I’ll read the first two now and when I’m done, it should be pretty close to the release of the final book.”
Boy was I wrong.
They’re still good! It’s just frustrating that they’re not finished!
If you want a series that will definitely finish though, read Brandon Sanderson. The man is a machine.
Lol I had posted this earlier: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/9543870
Ha! Excellent!
How are people supposed to read it if it’s wrapped up duh
People are wrapped up in the story eh
Well that just sounds like a health and safety violation
He should just go balls to the wall left field like Life of Brian and have aliens pick them up for some zany flight or do Quest for the Holy Grail and have it be a movie at the end and the police show up to arrest the cosplayers.
Yes, I also agree he shold use cocaine.
I saw a conversation between him and Stephen King where he talked about how laborious he found it to write consistently. He could get someone to ghost-write for him to make everyone shut up and rake in the money tho.
