Roger and Lisa were running late. They were employed by Silverstein Properties at the time of the September 11 attacks, working in temporary offices in the North Tower. Sharon also played a role in the family business, with two of his three children serving as executives at the company. Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVKiu9Su6Ls
After almost 25 years now, there are more things we still can learn about that day. Silverstein had signed a 99-year lease for the World Trade Center complex just weeks before the attacks. Silverstein has stated that he typically attended meetings at the World Trade Center every morning. However, on 9/11, he did not go to the office due to a medical appointment. This detail has frequently resurfaced in documentaries, news reports, and online discussions as people revisit the events of that tragic day.
The only day he is recorded as skipping his routine morning breakfast at Windows on the World.
Bullshit. Fucking lemmy is Facebook now.
He usually had breakfast there, but he often did not.
Nah, there are stupid people everywhere, not just Facebook and Lemmy
This is well documented. I wouldn’t have made the post if it was bullshit. Learn how to do simple research.
That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. Since we’re two claims in, if you can dig up that simple research then you can compel the other guy to actually back up their claim.
He did miss work. But the everyday breakfast part I might have fucked up on.
Y’all can fuck off with the boot licking, the conspiracies, the bigotry, and the ignorance.
In the title alone “This rich dickbag NEVER missed work” my ass.
Either he’s a workaholic in the most unhealthy way possible and should be shamed, not admired, or he’s an entitled lying prick who is busy “always at work” having 4 hour breakfasts at an open bar with other lying “coworkers and partners.”
I don’t get where you got that he was being admired for being an alleged workaholic. I’m pretty sure most of not everyone on Lemmy sees that as a bad thing.
Jesus Christ. This is as stupid as the idiots that believe Trump is Christian.
But he loves every quote from the bible. LOL! Did he ever say one?
He loves it all equally. cough
iNsLidE JoRb!
Bigger question, why didn’t he have breakfast there on September 12, 2001?
The truth is in there…
Has anyone checked whether he had breakfast there today!? There’s still time to prevent another tragedy!
Elevators were out of order.
Stairs were closed too.So you mean to tell me this guy was too ELITE to just take the escalator with the rest of us working folk?
They ran out of baegles and were waiting for delivery
Windows on the World was on the top floors of the North Tower… Are you joking?
I couldn’t be more serious, brother. You want the answers, or are you afraid to know what THEY aren’t telling you?
There’s so much bad news in this timeline, but seeing Onion News owning Info Wars is for sure a highlight
No idea what you are going on about, lol!
sigh They are fucking with you. They weren’t serious from the start.
I got, got!
Going on is right, going on a truth safari, govna’
Innit?
Everybody knew about it but us. Seems kind of interesting to me. This is like the enigma code. Whereas if you saved everybody the Germans figured out that their code was compromised. So you had to have some sacrificial lambs in order to keep it believable.
As I look deeper into it, I seen that there might have been warnings 2 hours before the attacks.
He didn’t “always” have breakfast at the north tower, he had breakfast at the north tower to meet new tenants so if he didn’t need to do that, he didn’t go. He didn’t go that morning because a dermatology appointment that had been made months in advance was that morning and his wife insisted he didn’t miss it.
I think Larry is a typical billionaire, hurting those around him far and wide to increase profits but this is just another 0 effort CTRL-C/CTRL-V without any actual verification of the claim because it fits your worldview. There’s plenty to complain about him without regurgitating made up shit.
Yeah but did you see his last name? /s
I’m not one to cry antisemitism but this reminds me of the “no Jews died on 9/11” conspiracy theory that was way too big for awhile
Yeah but did you see his last name? /s
God dammit, I missed it. For a second I was like if this is true that’s a pretty big coincidence…
It’s always antisemitism.
I don’t necessarily think OP is antisemitic but I vividly remember similar claims that Jewish bankers took that day off. I’m also quite familiar with the prevalence of conspiracy theories involving someone with a *stein or *berg surname
Yeah I don’t even think most people spreading these myths have anything against Jewish people, but if they took the time to dig around for the source of these, I think they would find most of them have some antisemitism at their core.
It’s so fucking stupid.
anonymous leaker is following the great tradition of 100s of years of
freedom of speechcitizen journalismanti-jew conspiracy fantasiesleftist and rightist gonna horseshoe
Orrr, hear me out…
It could be anti-billionaire conspiracy theories.
Why do you assume his being jewish is the most important factor here, and not his being a financial oligarch? Are you assuming one implies the other?
Financial oligarchs are a problem regardless of religion or ethnicity. Also, there are lots of non-wealthy jewish people whom I don’t see being the subjects of conspiracy theories.
So why do people assume that the being jewish part is the reason for the criticism? A billionaire is a billionaire.
Why do you assume his being jewish is the most important factor here, and not his being a financial oligarch? Are you assuming one implies the other?
It might not be if Anonymous_Leaker is to be believed, but generally it’s a safe default assumption. There are FAR fewer conspiracy theories about billionaires who aren’t Jewish. There’s Bill Gates and… I honestly can’t remember anyone else right now. Now who do we have with Jewish heritage that there are conspiracy theories about? The Rothschild family, Larry Fink/BlackRock (but curiously far fewer conspiracy theories about Blackstone which controls its investments more directly and is also run by a Jewish billionaire), George Soros… And let’s not forget “international bankers” (literally a dogwhistle for Jewish people who “run the world”). People don’t want to see Jewish people being rich, they don’t really care about anyone else being rich generally.
It’s also been said that every single Jewish person skipped work that day (untrue). There are a lot of people trying to blame this on Jewish people in general, or Israel at least (to be fair, I wouldn’t put it beyond Israel, but there’s no evidence of massive work skipping by Jewish people at WTC or NYC in general as often claimed).
Yeah, yeah, we get it. QAnon were neonazis and they were resurrecting himmlerian propaganda.
Is that all this is about though? There are plenty of conspiracies involving billionaires. They’re just not “conspiracy theories” because most of them happen to be true.
Trump and all his cronies. Epstein and all his associates. Was Epstein Jewish? I don’t even know. If so, it’s entirely incidental. Except for his involvement with Mossad, of course. But the State of Israel is not the same thing as Jewish heritage.
G.W. Bush’s grandfather was a member of the nazi party and was deeply involved with the Business Plot. I don’t know if they were billionaires, but could it have anything to do with conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11? I don’t know.
Pretending Jewish bankers secretly run the world is anti-semitic and insane, yes, obviously. But that doesn’t detract from the fact that their is a worldwide financial elite. We do live in a capitalist oligarchy, and things have been getting worse by the day for years. So let’s not lose sight of that just because some crackpots want to blame the Jews…
QAnon were neonazis and they were resurrecting himmlerian propaganda.
I mean it’s been going on for hundreds of years before QAnon, but sure. Distrust of Jewish people was a staple of medieval Europe lol. I’d completely forgotten QAnon.
There are plenty of conspiracies involving billionaires. They’re just not “conspiracy theories” because most of them happen to be true.
We were talking about conspiracy theories before, now you’re talking about conspiracies. They’re related, sure, but the entire point was that Jewish people are automatically targets of conspiracy theories, whereas other rich people aren’t. The fact that you’re bringing out non-jewish rich people’s actual conspiracies, not unfounded conspiracy theories, further reinforces my point.
Was Epstein Jewish
Well yes, Mossad consists mostly of Jewish people. But in this case it’s irrelevant because he was already a known child sexual abuser.
Pretending Jewish bankers secretly run the world is anti-semitic and insane, yes, obviously. But that doesn’t detract from the fact that their is a worldwide financial elite.
Yes, but my point is that you only hear the conspiracy theories about the Jewish bankers, not the other ones. BlackRock’s AUM is 14 trillion, Vanguard’s is 12. They do more or less the same thing. Yet BlackRock “controls the entire world” and I’ve NEVER heard anyone say Vanguard controls the entire world.
Now what are we looking at here? A rich Jewish person and the claim that the only day he ever missed breakfast at the window was 9/11. Was it truly the only day? Not according to himself, but a certain type of people are saying it was the only day he ever missed.
When you spread something like this, you’re helping the antisemites more than the anti-rich.
We were talking about conspiracy theories before, now you’re talking about conspiracies. They’re related, sure, but the entire point was that Jewish people are automatically targets of conspiracy theories, whereas other rich people aren’t. The fact that you’re bringing out non-jewish rich people’s actual conspiracies, not unfounded conspiracy theories, further reinforces my point.
I think you missed my point. The reason they’re not called “conspiracy theories” when we talk about plain old billionaires is because they’re true conspiracies. So pointing out that there aren’t as many conspiracy theories about plain old billionaires is a moot point. We do talk about billionaire conspiracies, they’re just not theories.
Well yes, Mossad consists mostly of Jewish people. But in this case it’s irrelevant
Yes, that’s what I said. “entirely incidental.” Meaning there is no direct causation attributable to him being Jewish. I only asked because I genuinely didn’t know if he was and I didn’t want you to say something like “Aha! See, you’re mentioning a Jewish billionaire.” He was a billionaire. His being jewish isn’t what’s relevant. As I stated.
Yes, but my point is that you only hear the conspiracy theories about the Jewish bankers, not the other ones. BlackRock’s AUM is 14 trillion, Vanguard’s is 12.
Honestly, if you didn’t make it clear from the context, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you anything about either of those companies or who owns them. If I read some crazy facts about BlackRock being a corrupt trillionaire corporation I’d have a problem with that for being a corrupt trillionaire corporation. If it turns out the CEO happens to be Jewish, then so what? That’s incidental, it doesn’t change anything.
Is that the company that owns something like 80% of rental properties in NYC? Or is that Blackstone?
I really don’t have any opinion about the case mentioned in the post. I don’t know anything about the situation, and I don’t like to pass judgement without knowledge. Being a billionaire, I find that I distrust him by default. Being Jewish doesn’t have anything to do with it. But neither of those things means I’m gonna jump to some conclusion like “it was an inside job and he was in on it.” I simply don’t have the kind of information it would take to claim something like that, and I’m skeptical of anyone who would make that claim without that information. Which is information that obviously doesn’t exist, because if it did then either someone would have been convicted for it or it would have been destroyed. So I don’t exactly lean towards credulity in this kind of thing.
Really the only reason I’m here is to break things down into painstaking detail to clarify points where I think I see people misunderstanding each other rather than disagreeing, leading to an unnecessary amount of hostility
“Why do you assume his being jewish is the most important factor here, and not his being a financial oligarch? Are you assuming one implies the other?”
I can answer that for you.
Because Jimmy is a fucking moron. That probably actually hates Jewish people. Then he tried to take it out on me, not knowing that I am an actual Jewish person. He thought he could just call somebody antisemitic and get away with it.
Look at you trying to speak for me. I am Jewish. But you didn’t know that, you can’t read minds over the internet like you think you can. You just hurled an insane accusation based on nothing. People yell antisemitism over nothing now. You just did that. You are disgusting.
The fact that he missed work isn’t made up shit. It is well documented. That is all that is being said here.
That is all that is being said here
That’s not all that’s being implied here.
By others, not me. You can’t read my mind.
Yes you! You posted the title dumbass! The title makes the claim that was the ONLY day he missed work!
I said he missed work, fuck face! There is nothing else I am implying! Learn how to read! There is no claim! It is proven and well documented that he missed work! There are interviews!
The only day he is recorded as skipping his routine morning breakfast at Windows on the World.
Hey! What do those words right there say? Those words right there that you typed? Specifically the bold ones.
Well dumbass? What do the words say? WHAT DO THEY FUCKING SAY RIGHT THERE?!
He said it in an interview you complete fuck tard!
I didn’t deny that! DO you even understand what you are saying??! You fucking moron. It was the only day he didn’t show up for work.
I’ll help you out. The implication is that the only reason it would be significant that this was “the only day” he missed his routine is if he somehow knew about the attack in advance. Otherwise there would be no reason to post. It’s a thinly-veiled conspiracy theory.
This is what “subtext” means. Someone in a different thread tried to equate subtext to strawmanning, but those are very different things, and it’s not far short of gaslighting to pretend the subtext doesn’t exist.
I don’t claim to know one way or another why he skipped his routine or what he did or didn’t know. I’ve got no horse in this race. But I think it’s grown unnecessarily heated in this thread.
I get what you are saying, now his adult kids didn’t show up for work either. They were reportedly late. Was there anything to that? Who knows.
I knew you were going to say that.
It took about seven years for all the billionaires and insurance companies and lawyers to decide who owed what to whom.
It took about 30 seconds to decide to start killing brown people.
It basically was an immediate attack wasn’t it? What investigation led to the attack on them?
uh…not to be a pain, but they attacked the one country that had nothing to do with 9/11.
it was Saudi Arabia, with Bin Laden coordinating from Pakistan. But we can’t attack investors.
Saudi Arabia does have so much oil money.
Well, Osama bin Laden publicly taking credit for the attack was a big part.
He was known to be in Afghanistan, known to be part of al-Qaeda, and the Taliban was known to be sheltering and supporting Al-Qaeda.
The Taliban was the internationally recognized government of Afghanistan, which isn’t they were never declared a terrorist organization. When they outright said they would not extradite bin Laden to the US and openly refused to shut down terrorist bases or extradite other terrorists, the US invaded.
Don’t let the clusterfuck of the politics around Iraq cloud the invasion of Afghanistan. That one was extremely straightforward. The government of Afghanistan harbored and sheltered bin Laden, who very publicly claimed credit for 9/11, and then refused to do anything about it afterward.
He was known to be in Afghanistan
Except he was in Pakistan. We were told he was in Afghanistan.
He was absolutely confirmed to be in Afghanistan until the battle of Tora Bora, when he fled to Pakistan.
A side note-don’t you think a terrorist would want credit for that even if they were not involved at all?
Sure. But it fit his MO and other intelligence data, so there’s no reason to doubt the claim.
Trying to replace a secret conspiracy with a different secret conspiracy that involves faking a secret conspiracy is just overly complicated for no reason, and only distracts from the actual issues around the cause of 9/11.
But no, it was definitely not the case that our intelligence services failed to evaluate a novel threat correctly, failed to properly prioritize it as a result which caused delayed responses, and that our air defense system was caught flat footed because the US is essentially isolated so readiness isn’t a priority.
Definitely not. If anything, the whole thing is actually evidence that the US is so competent that the whole thing can be nearly flawlessly faked. Except for that one building they blew up over the open radio broadcast for no real reason.
They were already there they started capturing and killing known enemies immediately it ramped up as military logistics ramped up. John Kiriakou has spoken a fair bit about the days weeks and months after 9/11 on the podcast circuit.
What are you talking about?
Here’s the top answer to ‘legal problems caused by WTC attacks’
The war on brown people speaks for itself.
Oh, gotcha. It led to all the Middle Eastern hate after it. I was talking about how quick the U.S. was to attack the people right after.
US military involvement in the middle east didn’t start on 9/11
white people are such fucking bullies. spent decades fucking around the global stage, doing whatever the fuck they want, wars, stealing resources, destabilising democracies for puppet dictators. then when they history begins the moment consequences happen.
Not going to justify terror attacks, but it wasn’t because Bin Laden was mad that Americans had freedom and Jesus.
Yeah, I’m sure the problem is “white people” and not “billionaires, the capitalist system, and nation-state actors who are willing to enforce austerity on the poor in order to boost margins for the financial oligarchs.”
Why fix capitalism and oligarchy, when you could fix whiteness instead?
I swear, you’re just giving ammunition to the “white genocide” and “great replacement” conspiracy theorists when you say shit like that.
Those are problems too. but we need some serious antiracism work. There is a reason my local DSA chapter, despite a town that is half black, is exclusively white and does jack shit.
Unless we solve white people’s racism, even the not Billionaires, nothing will be done.
Yes, I’m sure those DSA members are all racists and it’s not the PoCs refusing to work with white people if it means cooperation instead of grandstanding to win the oppression olympics.
They might be able to get more done with, you know, more voter support? That’s kinda what it takes in a democracy to have any political influence.
Who do the black people in your town vote for?
white people are such fucking bullies
Ah yes, the Great White Monilith. Our power is unmatched. Give us enough time and we shall meld into one, great Super White and bully the stars!
Shut the fuck up
yes, it fucking is.
even poor white people are enjoying privilege of colonialism. And like you said, don’t give a fuck.
“He’s privileged to be living under a bridge in a moldy jacket because he’s white.”
No time for this idiot logic.
Or maybe it’s the only day people noticed because it was a significant day.
Needs sources.
He technically never had lunch in the world trade center after nine eleven either
Whoa! That is a big deal if true! Source? Why isn’t anyone investigating this suspicious detail!?!?!?
Source was added.
The only day he is recorded as skipping his routine morning breakfas
Recorded.
He actually missed work. Not just breakfast.
The first plane hit at 8:46 AM.
Yeah no shit he missed work. If he was at a dermatology appointment first thing in the morning he wouldn’t have been there for breakfast when the planes hit. And once the second plane hit at 9:03, nobody but firemen were going back into the towers.
He still was preparing for his doctor’s appointment when the first plane hit the North tower at 8:46 AM. Of course he didn’t go to work thereafter.
If he really had missed work, he would have been there.
doubt the average salaryman could afford high end breakfast every day.
Why focus on this one, hard-to-prove, mostly circumstantial piece of evidence when there are many, many more pieces of concrete, direct evidence that the owner of the WTC and all the wealthiest people in the US knew about the attacks and chose to profit from them?
Such as?
The common one is that he took out the insurance policy just a month before the attacks.
But that conveniently leaves out that he had only leased the WTC complex at the same time, and part of the contract on the lease was getting insurance on the buildings.
So he went to work every day for just over 2 months. Wow.
I mean, post covid that is kinda impressive but he did just sign a lease on some cool buildings. I’d go every day too. Of course there will be coincinces like this.
“work”
it was his favourite breakfast spot routine where he sometimes met for meetings.
That dude has likely never worked a day in his life
Why does this matter?
Because OP learned it today.
Correct!
I am just pointing out facts.
The fact he missed work for a doctor’s appointment? I mean that’s pretty common and not really “news” worthy. I think most people will miss work for doctors appointments. Am i missing something?
Out of all the days, he doesn’t show up on that one. It is insanely lucky and worth pointing out.
a lot of people also didnt show up to work that day.
it happens when theres 1000s of people in one building
Edit: Ignore this. I responded on wrong post.
I was just replying. Why are you so defensive?
I responded to the wrong person, my bad. My screen is dark as fuck.
It is insanely lucky
Or he was in on it and was tipped off.
He still would have had an 87% chance of survival if he had been at work
You may not be aware, but 9/11/2001 was a pretty significant date for the World Trade Center O.o
I am aware thanks! I lived in NYC at the time. 100s (1000s?) of people have similar stories. Just don’t why this is different then any others. Is there something proving this was not just luck. That he lied?
Self own? Those are rare.
He bought the building for a song (about $900 million) because it was full of asbestos and required to complete a multi-billion-dollar abatement process by 01/01/2002. Most agree such a project would have taken a minimum of one year to complete. No plans were ever made to begin the abatement and he got a $1.2 billion insurance payout after they were destroyed.
Also, building seven and the attacked section of the Pentagon held all the evidence and personnel investigating the biggest financial crimes of the 90s, like Enron and their ilk.
There’s also the HUGE number of extremely high-risk puts that were purchased against the involved airlines in the week leading up to the attack. Like, 900 times more than normal, none of them expiring after the 11th, all of them suddenly paying out nearly twice what they were bought for.
Here’s a fun video with more details and sources: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vOZToel_368
Here’s a fun video
In the sense that this guy a laughable conspiracy nutjob, sure.
He didn’t buy the towers. He leased them. Port Authority of NY and NJ owned the entire complex.
And he ended up getting $4.55 Billion from insurance, while the rebuild of the complex cost much more than that.
One WTC cost $3.9B alone. 7 WTC was another $700M. Total complex rebuild was $26B.
He ended up personally losing over a billion dollars on the complex after the attacks and rebuild.
Not sure what rando YouTube source you have that gets extremely basic facts wrong.
building for a song (about $900 million) because it was full of asbestos and required to complete a multi-billion-dollar abatement process by 01/01/2002. Most agree such a project would have taken a minimum of one year to complete.
Yeah, most people don’t realize the wtc was a really shitty building that no one really wanted to lease from. Part of the reason the collapses were so bad was because the city management had moved as many publicly run organizations headquarters there as a way to subsidize the building. One of the reasons the port authority was awal for much of the event was because the port authority headquarters was located in one of the towers.
I haven’t looked into the information that video uses for their sources about finace, but just judging by what they had to say about the engineering aspects about wtc7 collapse, I would be dubious.
The study they are talking about from the university of Alaska fairbanks is very flawed and was paid for by the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth.
Their conclusion was that the collapse couldn’t be accounted for by fire alone, but that ignores the fact that the structural fire was caused by large debris that penetrated multiple floors and caused a huge amount of damage to the structural supports of the building.
The study has also been proven incorrect about their assumption about fire being unable to suddenly collapse a steel framed building of that size. Since 9/11 there have 2 or three steel framed sky scrapers that have suddenly collapsed due to uncontrolled fires.
If the video’s misrepresentation about engineering is reflected in the financial portion of the video… I wouldn’t be confident that anything they said was an accurate reflection of reality.
Exactly HOW building 7 fell isn’t really relevant when it’s well-documented that the building was fully evacuated and destroyed, despite being nowhere near ground zero. It’s also very suspicious as to how the fire even started in the first place.
It might be impossible to know the exact details of how every little thing went down. But, just because you can’t determine all that doesn’t mean the narrative we’ve all been given is completely correct.
The idea that Bin Laden operated alone, independently of US influence, and without anyone in the US knowing what he was planning, stinks to high hell.
Exactly HOW building 7 fell isn’t really relevant
I think that’s called moving the goal post.
the building was fully evacuated and destroyed, despite being nowhere near ground zero.
It’s pretty normal to evacuate a building when it’s been hit by debris and has been set on fire… Also wtc7 was only 350 feet north of a near 1400 foot tower, it’s extremely easy to see why that’s still in the danger zone. You don’t even have to use your imagination, you can look up pictures of the damage caused by the debris.
It’s also very suspicious as to how the fire even started in the first place.
A large chunk of debris falling through several floors of an office building does not seem like a very suspicious reason for a fire.
But, just because you can’t determine all that doesn’t mean the narrative we’ve all been given is completely correct.
First of all, I didn’t make any claims about the narrative. I was just commenting on misleading engineering claims. Secondly, just because you can’t determine the exact details of how every little thing went down does not necessarily mean that the narrative is inherently false.
The idea that Bin Laden operated alone, independently of US influence, and without anyone in the US knowing what he was planning, stinks to high hell.
Who is making these claims? Its well known that 9/11 was political blowback from the deterioration of the US and Bin Ladens relationship the Middle East. It’s also pretty well known that several US intelligence agencies were alerted of potential terrorist attacks via airlines, and that they were being uncooperative and incompetent.
If we are evaluating competing scenario of what really happened that day we can use some reason and logic. One story requires a massive conspiracy conducted by multiple intelligence agencies, wealthy private citizens, demolition crews, and politicians… potentially hundreds to thousands of people who have all been extremely competent and have kept their mouths shut for several decades.
The other scenario requires decades of the US government doing stupid shit in the middle East, and a couple intelligence agencies with an established history of fucking around and finding out to be incompetent.
Now I’m not saying there weren’t clandestine actors who didn’t ignore credible information about a potential attack, or there isn’t funny business between the US government and a country like Saudi Arabia. But that tends to be how things go, politicians never let a good tragedy go to waste.
(I’m a different guy and I’m not arguing you on anyting else BUT:)
One story requires a massive conspiracy conducted by multiple intelligence agencies, wealthy private citizens, demolition crews, and politicians… potentially hundreds to thousands of people who have all been extremely competent and have kept their mouths shut for several decades.
Totally possible. There’ve been things of that magnitude that were hidden for decades that finally did get whistle blown, it’s entirely possible (I mean it’s almost impossible that there wouldn’t be) other things that never did get whistle blown (at least yet.)
Just look at some of the large scale operations we have come to learn about (be they leaked or later declassified), MK Ultra, MK Naomi, Operation Paperclip, Project PRISM, now they’re doing UFO disclosure so apparently that’s been real in some capacity and been covered up since like 1947, that recent Mossad deal with the pagers, pretty sure Epstein was a Mossad honeypot (but that one “isn’t proven yet.”)
“Well we know about those now” yeah and we didn’t for years before we did, it’s more likely than not that “now” is the “before we knew” years for something large and conspiratorially organized (not necessarily 9/11). To say otherwise is to assume we know everything the various agencies (CIA, FBI, Mossad) are doing, which is patently ridiculous to assume.
Furthermore I think it’d take less people “in the know” than you may think. Those agencies (namely CIA) work because of compartmentalization, the agent knows his part and any info needed to make that happen, and that’s it. The next agent in the chain knows his part and nothing more, and so on. In the end there may be only a couple people who actually know the entire picture. Also “we’ll fucking kill you and frame you for CP and destroy your entire family” will do wonders for a motherfucker’s will to speak up, and I don’t think a little murder here or there “in the interest of national security” has ever stopped the CIA before. I don’t think they’re stopping at “but you signed an NDA” for something as big as like Operation Northwoods.
Just look at some of the large scale operations we have come to learn about (be they leaked or later declassified), MK Ultra, MK Naomi, Operation Paperclip, Project PRISM, now they’re doing UFO disclosure so apparently that’s been real in some capacity and been covered up since like 1947, that recent Mossad deal with the pagers,
Those examples are a bit different in scale. Mk ultra only involved a couple hundred researches/agents. It also didn’t kill thousands of people and was first brought to public light in 1974, just a couple years after the program ended.
Project Mk Naomi involved significantly less people and was made aware to the public in 1975, 5 years after it was shut down.
Operation paperclip didn’t kill people and started leaking to the public within a year.
The Prism program didn’t kill people, began in 2008 and was famously leaked by Snowden in 2013.
As far as Ufo disclosure, I’m not really sure if that really fits into the scheme of large conspiracy. The leaks have mainly been utilized as a political tool to divert eyes from the administration, and have largely been uneventful.
The mossad pager bombs did kill dozens of people and injured thousands and we found out about who did it and how almost immediately. So I’m not sure if that aid your overarching argument.
Well we know about those now" yeah and we didn’t for years before we did, it’s more likely than not that “now” is the “before we knew” years for something large and conspiratorially organized (not necessarily 9/11). To say otherwise is to assume we know everything the various agencies (CIA, FBI, Mossad) are doing, which is patently ridiculous to assume.
The information surrounding all these examples were all illuminated within a couple years of the events. They may have not resonated with the general public, but they also were much smaller in scale and less destructive to the general public than 9/11.
I don’t think we know everything about the alphabet orgs in the government, but they really aren’t very good about keeping large and impactful programs from the public. In general the larger a secret is the harder it is to keep people quiet. I mean hypothetically, how much money would it take to insure you didn’t go to the public about your involvement with something as horrible as 9/11? What’s the likelihood that a bunch of blue collar workers are going to agree to demolish a building with people inside it?
Furthermore I think it’d take less people “in the know” than you may think. Those agencies (namely CIA) work because of compartmentalization, the agent knows his part and any info needed to make that happen, and that’s it. The next agent in the chain knows his part and nothing more, and so on.
That’s not how something like a planned demolition works… A large building usually has about 150 people working together in constant communication. It takes engineers, construction workers, explosive experts, and enough hands to lay down miles of cable. That’s just for something the size of a hotel, the towers or even wt7 would take hundreds of people working for weeks, and that’s just the deomol5 aspect. You would also have hundreds of agents working to coordinate planes, schedules, and running interference inside the buildings. It’s just not feasible.
Plus, I think even the most slow witted agent would put the pieces together after the event occured.
Also “we’ll fucking kill you and frame you for CP and destroy your entire family” will do wonders for a motherfucker’s will to speak up, and I don’t think a little murder here or there “in the interest of national security” has ever stopped the CIA before. I don’t think they’re stopping at “but you signed an NDA” for something as big as like Operation Northwoods.
There’s a reason they operate in compartmentalized cells, and it’s because secrets are famously hard to keep, even with the threat of violence. Something like 9/11 is just too large to operate successfully in the compartmentalization necessary to keep it hidden.
There’s a reason Northwood never happened, it would have impossible to keep secret
These agencies are made of people, people run their mouths. The simple fact is there hasn’t been a single credible person to come forward in the last 25 years that has stated they were part of a conspiracy surrounding 9/11. That level of secrecy is just not feasible, and is a lot less possible than the actual explanation.
Speaking of Snowden and 9/11, I’m a fan of his take on the “conspiracy.”
Not that it was an inside job and the alphabet agencies purposely took down those buildings. The way I remember Snowden describing it was that CIA, FBI, NSA, and others knew about the attack ahead of time, but each of those departments wanted to be THE ONE TO STOP IT. So instead of working together, which if they had done they might’ve actually been able to thwart it, they would instead compete against eachother with more government funding being the prize. The conspiracy isn’t some financial cover up, or a false flag event, or a reptilian sacrifice to their death god or whatever. The conspiracy is that these agencies are more concerned about competing against one another for funding instead of working together to prevent attacks and loss of life. Just classic capitalism shit.
Then speaking of classic capitalism shit, because the attacks were known about ahead of time, insider trading happened and that would explain the shorting of United Airline stocks in the week before it happened. A lot of people saw opportunity from that tragedy, that could’ve been avoided, but wasn’t due to greed, competitiveness, and hubris.
That is my general thought on the matter, never attribute to malice to an event which can be explained by incompetency. That was one of the main reasons for the justification for the creation of the DHS, the agencies basically needed a babysitter to force them to communicate instead of beef over funding and jurisdiction.
The idea is just more grounded in reality and actually has evidence to support it. I don’t know why people feel the need to attribute super competency to organizations that have so many losses on their record. Just to attribute extra malice to an organization that doesn’t need the help.
Those examples are a bit different in scale. Mk ultra only involved a couple hundred researches/agents. It also didn’t kill thousands of people and was first brought to public light in 1974, just a couple years after the program ended.
You (should) get my point though, regardless of if deaths or coconspirators match up 1:1, things do happen that are orchestrated by multiple people that you and I do not know about, to believe otherwise is arrogant.
The amount deaths are irrelevant (and btw about 14 boxes of paperwork were destroyed, we’ll never know what that contained…), point is that from 50-70 when the “program shut down” (…riiiiight) 20 yr, it was still a secret program and “not happening.” 4 years later turns out the “crazies” like me suggesting a government experimental conspiracy to test acid and other mind control methods on some of our nation’s most prominent assassins and murderers and creating the hippy movement by accident were right the whole time…
As far as Ufo disclosure, I’m not really sure if that really fits into the scheme of large conspiracy. The leaks have mainly been utilized as a political tool to divert eyes from the administration, and have largely been uneventful.
It fits, they’ve said “nuh uh” for almost 80 years and lord knows how many people have been involved in the cover up, “uh huh” still means “uh huh” even if they’re only admitting it now because of Epstein (which again let me remind you is yet ANOTHER conspiracy involving conspirators that has come to light after 20yr of operation…) if I murder someone and only admit it because it distracts from my crimes coming to light, I still murdered the guy even if the admission is “a distraction” from whatever was coming to light.
The mossad pager bombs did kill dozens of people and injured thousands and we found out about who did it and how almost immediately.
And how long were they working on it before we found out? The fact you seem to think you know everything in real time baffles me, you really can’t admit that maybe large organized intelligence rings may do things you don’t know about?
I don’t think we know everything about the alphabet orgs in the government, but they really aren’t very good about keeping large and impactful programs from the public.
That you know of.
In general the larger a secret is the harder it is to keep people quiet. I mean hypothetically, how much money would it take to insure you didn’t go to the public about your involvement with something as horrible as 9/11?
A few hundered thousand bucks and the assurance that you’ll kill my family if I speak up even though I won’t be believed because I don’t have concrete proof oughta cover it.
What’s the likelihood that a bunch of blue collar workers are going to agree to demolish a building with people inside it?
Did you properly threaten their families? Makes it more likely…
Again I’m not saying that this is the case for 9/11 specifically, I’m saying “the government could never keep a secret” is patently ridiculous to assume.
There’s a reason they operate in compartmentalized cells, and it’s because secrets are famously hard to keep
Easier when
they operate in compartmentalized cells…
There’s a reason Northwood never happened
Kennedy said “Er Uh, no.”
The simple fact is there hasn’t been a single credible person to come forward in the last 25 years that has stated they were part of a conspiracy surrounding 9/11
Is that what it would take to make you finally realize you don’t know everything about everything? Well again I wasn’t even saying 9/11 was a conspiracy but now I hope that happens just so you personally can realize the world isn’t as simple as you seem to believe.
You (should) get my point though, regardless of if deaths or coconspirators match up 1:1, things do happen that are orchestrated by multiple people that you and I do not know about, to believe otherwise is arrogant.
And you should understand that context and scale is important. I never claimed that all conspiracy is impossible to keep secret for some time, just that the scale of the conspiracy and what the conspiracy is doing has a direct correlation on how easy it is to keep secret. Mkultra was easier to keep under wraps because people were personally benefitting from the distribution of drugs, and those taking the drugs for the most part were happy to do so.
amount deaths are irrelevant (and btw about 14 boxes of paperwork were destroyed, we’ll never know what that contained…), point is that from 50-70 when the “program shut down” (…riiiiight) 20 yr, it was still a secret program and “not happening.” 4 years later turns out the “crazies” like me suggesting a government experimental conspiracy to test acid and other mind control methods on some of our nation’s most prominent assassins and murderers and creating the hippy movement by accident were right the whole time…
Deaths create the motive to investigate, to say they don’t matter is just silly. It wasn’t the “crazies” who uncovered mkultra, that was done by professional reporters.
It fits, they’ve said “nuh uh” for almost 80 years and lord knows how many people have been involved in the cover up, “uh huh” still means “uh huh” even if they’re only admitting it now because of Epstein (which again let me remind you is yet ANOTHER conspiracy involving conspirators that has come to light after 20yr of operation…)
None of the stuff they said “nuh uh” too has been confirmed by any of the disclosure. All they’ve done is release files of sightings of suspicious objects they’ve catalogued. It’s not like they’ve come out and said Roswell was real and we’ve been using alien tech this whole time. There hasn’t been a single disclosure that’s confirmed we’re dealing with anything extraterrestrial.
As far as Epstein goes, there were public reports about his illicit activities going back as far as the early 00’s. His operation is more of an indictment on how little the general public care about young women than it is some secretive government program.
And how long were they working on it before we found out? The fact you seem to think you know everything in real time baffles me, you really can’t admit that maybe large organized intelligence rings may do things you don’t know about?
Literally the same year… Hezbollah switched from walkie talkies to pagers in 2024 and Israel found an opportunity to intercept them before they arrived.
And again… I never claimed things were impossible to plan in secret or that the public knows exactly what’s going on at all times. Just that after the event occured and bodies start pulling up people will start investigating what happened. At that point operations involving a lot of people are easy to investigate. I don’t know where you’re getting the notion I claimed we are omnipresent and omniscient.
That you know of.
As the evidence leads us to believe. All the examples you’ve given thus far I have rebuttals for. I can’t disprove something something that you can’t prove happened. All I can do is give context and examples that rebute your argument.
A few hundered thousand bucks and the assurance that you’ll kill my family if I speak up even though I won’t be believed because I don’t have concrete proof oughta cover it.
Any examples of this being offered to anyone? Any examples of mysterious deaths of entire families connected to a conspiracy? Do you make the offer before you get involved? Do you kill the people who refuse to involve themselves before you tell them what they are doing? You don’t think that would lead a paper trail?
Did you properly threaten their families? Makes it more likely…
No death bed confessions? No evidence of a thousand demolition experts converging on NYC before 9/11? No testimony of blue collar workers being approached for a secret job in NYC before 9/11? This is not a television show, and the cia or FBI aren’t nearly as competent as what you are thinking. They aren’t all mindless killing machines willing to take out innocent American workers without question for a job. How many sociopaths do you think work for the cia?
“the government could never keep a secret” is patently ridiculous to assume.
Yes, and I never claimed that. That’s just a straw man argument you seem to be fixated on fighting despite the fact that all my rebuttals have been framed on how your examples differ from 9/11. My claim was that the level of secrecy required to pull of a conspiracy the scale of 9/11 would be impossible.
they operate in compartmentalized cells…
Yes, and a high number of compartmentalized cells become inefficient at scale. It’s like playing phone tag, the more cells you have working the harder it is to communicate and allocate resources. The biggest trade off with covert large cell orginazations is that the larger the network is the less it can organize in a coherent manner.
Kennedy said “Er Uh, no.”
And you don’t think the idea of political blowback had anything to do with that?
Is that what it would take to make you finally realize you don’t know everything about everything?
Ahh yes, the absence of evidence is actually evidence itself! Again if the government was willing and capable to commit to the actions you have described to keep secrets, then why do we know anything about all the examples of uncovered conspiracies you already listed?
Did threatening families not exist before the 2000’s? Why aren’t all of snowdens family members mysteriously gone?
now I hope that happens just so you personally can realize the world isn’t as simple as you seem to believe.
Lol, you hope it’s true that the government murdered thousands of US citizens just so you “win” an argument? You seem like a reasonable and well adjusted human being…
I hope that you recover from your inforwars based brain injury.
Sorry to break it to you, but
You can’t change a lemmy users’ mind. No matter what, they will believe the official narrative like their lives depend on it, especially if it includes jews
